Help needed on oak flooring project

[jonny round boy]

Last night, I rather foolishly promised my better half that I'd do the floor in the living room in the next few weeks. We've been talking about getting it done ever since we moved in three years ago, but now I've committed myself....

Anyway, there is an existing timber (pine) floor (currently carpeted) that is completely shot in several places, and is beyond economic repair. So the whole lot needs ripping up & replacing.

We're on a tight budget, but I want to do as good a job of it as I can afford. Wickes currently have some solid oak prefinished flooring on sale at less than £27/sq.m which she really likes. I've had a look at it in store & brought a sample home, and whilst it's not the best quality I've ever seen it's a long way from being the worst! So we've decided to go for that.

Obviously, because this is short lengths I will need a sub-floor. My problem is how to fix it down. I'm planning to take up the old boards, and put down a sub-floor of 18mm WBP ply (I have an irrational dislike of chipboard floors, I don't know why!). The fitting instructions for the flooring only cover glueing it up as a floating floor (which I have done on a couple of occasions before, along with laminate floors) but I want it fixed not floating - floating floors always seem to have a hollow, echo-y sound when you walk on them. They never (to me at least) feel solid. It seems my options are either secret nailing, or glueing the floor down, neither of which I've done before.

Secret nailing (or secret screwing using these - I have an irrational dislike of nails, too!) is pretty self-explanatory, but I don't know if there are any pitfalls to look out for in this method, either whilst fitting or in the long term.

Glueing it down seems at the moment to be the best way to go but I have no experience of this whatsoever.

One other option is available to me - this room is directly above my workshop, and there's no ceiling in place at the moment, so I have access to the underside of the sub-floor - I could theoretically screw up from underneath on this one. Is this a feasable method?

I'm looking for some general advice and recommendations on what methods, adhesives etc.  I should use. How would you guys tackle this job?

 

[ajones]

Jonny
I would not use an 18mm board I would buy a thicker board that did not need a sub floor that way you dont have the hight difference where new floor meets old.or the expense of a sub floor

 

[justinmcf]

what thickness is the existing pine floor and why not use it as the sub floor?

these days sika and bostick adhesives are common practice for flooring.
i highly recommend secret nailing.
you could hire a small compressor, hose and secret nail gun pretty cheaply for a day or two.
you just need to buy the staples, which i am sure the hire company will supply also.

justin

 

[woodguy7]

OK Jonny, you will no doubt get many different answers to this one but i will give you my opinion.

I have done countless floors like you describe & i will go through my procedure.

Leave your subfloor unless it is too badly worn in places.  It has obviously been in place a long time & is not likely to move any more.  Screw down any loose or squeaky boards as you will not get the chance again.
I staple down a breather membrane, like the stuff used on kit houses.  2 wooden floors should not be in contact with each other when nailed together.
Get your first row layed out dead straight.  I always cut the plasterboard the height of the flooring & keep the back edge of the boards flush with the wall, this way the board can expand under the plasterboard.  Cut off the groove on the first row & screw the boards down through the face making sure that the skirting covers the screws.  You can the hand nail or take a brad gunn & secret nail the feather.
Second row, only glue the ends of the boards, never the long length.  Again hand nail or brad gunn the feathers.

Ok, now you have 2 rows down that are fixed pretty securely.
I then take a flooring nailer that fires 50mm flooring cleats (you can hire these) & thump a nail in approx every 400mm depending on the board length.
The reason i don't use the flooring nailer on the first row is it wont go back to the wall because of the magazine & you don't want to thump the first row as it is nice & straight.  With 2 rows down it is secure enough to thump away at.
Quite repetitive then im afraid.
I keep boards that are long enough for thresholds at doorways & always work them so the feathers or grooves work in to them.
At the end of the room you wont have enough room to use the nailer so i hand nail with the same cleats, sometime having to pre-drill.
The last board like the first, cut the drywall & screw through the face making sure the skirting covers it.
But make sure you only glue the end butts.  Even with nails, the floor should be able to move if required.  If it is glued in 1 big slab then you could end up with big problems.

This is the way i have always done it & have NEVER had a call back.

Hope this gives you one option.  I am at the end of a phone if you need any help.

Woodguy.

 

[jonny round boy]

Jonny
I would not use an 18mm board I would buy a thicker board that did not need a sub floor that way you dont have the hight difference where new floor meets old.or the expense of a sub floor

The reason for going for this floor is purely down to cost. The flooring is £25/m2. Add another £10/m2 for the subfloor, and that's £35/m2. If you can suggest a source for 20+mm oak floorboards that comes even close to this, I'd be very greatful! Cheapest I can find is £60+/m2 once you add in delivery & VAT.

Justin/Woodguy,

The existing boards are 22mm pine. There's one area that was badly damaged when the house was first wired, and there's about 1.5m2 missing completely where the old stone hearth was taken up. This is currently 'patched in' with some 18mm chipboard, and covered with a big rug [embarassed]. All the boards are quite badly cupped, too.

The cost of the subfloor is minimal compared to the cost & time needed to make the existing floor good again. Plus, an 18mm sub-floor & 18mm board will end up the same thickness as the current 22mm board, underlay and carpet, so the doors won't need altering.

2 wooden floors should not be in contact with each other when nailed together

I've not heard that before. Why is that?

 

[Ken Nagrod]

No offense, but the terms secret nailing and secret nail gun gave me a laugh. I'm guessing that = what we call blind nailing?

The reason for not nailing or screwing one floor directly to another is to eliminate squeaking and damage or gapping between two differently expanding materials. Usually tar (felt) paper is a good separator. Some flooring specifies a special barrier or rosin paper instead.

 

[jonny round boy]

No offense, but the terms secret nailing and secret nail gun gave me a laugh. I'm guessing that = what we call blind nailing?

Ken,

The first rule of secret nailing, is that you do not talk about secret nailing....

[tongue]

 

[mattfc]

The reason for going for this floor is purely down to cost. The flooring is £25/m2. Add another £10/m2 for the subfloor, and that's £35/m2. If you can suggest a source for 20+mm oak floorboards that comes even close to this, I'd be very greatful! Cheapest I can find is £60+/m2 once you add in delivery & VAT.

Have a look at http://www.uk-timber.co.uk/solid-french-flooring-premium-grade-prelacquered-french-flooring-c-145_107.html
£35sq meter premium grade laquered 22mm

 

[Ken Nagrod]

No offense, but the terms secret nailing and secret nail gun gave me a laugh. I'm guessing that = what we call blind nailing?

Ken,

The first rule of secret nailing, is that you do not talk about secret nailing....

[tongue]

[big grin]

SHHHHHHHH.  [wink]

 

[jonny round boy]

Footstool,

I've been thinking about your post, and I'm going to look further into the idea of just getting thicker boards in longer lengths. It's quite a bit more expensive, but I agree & acknowledge it's probably a better way of doing the job. There would be fewer joints for one thing...

 

[ajones]

Jonny, french timber direct, wide board 22mm thick £35 per sq metre you can then wax or oil easier to maintain than a lacquered surface.

they are down in the south east but there must be outlets for this stuff neare you.

 

[jonny round boy]

Have a look at http://www.uk-timber.co.uk/solid-french-flooring-premium-grade-prelacquered-french-flooring-c-145_107.html
£35sq meter premium grade laquered 22mm

Cheers Matt!

 

[ajones]

No offense, but the terms secret nailing and secret nail gun gave me a laugh. I'm guessing that = what we call blind nailing?

Ken,

The first rule of secret nailing, is that you do not talk about secret nailing....

[tongue]

You should not take any notice of anything ryan giggs tells you...... [blink]

 

[Tim Morris]

Jonny not as important the number of joints. The floor will lay a little quicker with the longer lengths and be much easier to keep straight as you work you way across the room.  [smile] Good luck

 

[ajones]

Jonny, french timber direct, wide board 22mm thick £35 per sq metre you can then wax or oil easier to maintain than a lacquered surface.

they are down in the south east but there must be outlets for this stuff neare you.

You beat me to it Matt [tongue]

 

[b_m_hart]

If you do decide to pull out the old subfloor (which I don't think is a particularly wise move unless it is horribly uneven), do yourself a favor and make sure you use T&G instead of normal ply for the subfloor.  It WILL make a difference down the road as far as squeaking less.  Also, are the floors throughout your place face nailed, or is the place newer than that?  If they are face nailed, you may be able to find a good deal on solid oak strips and just pay someone to come in and sand / finish, and still pay less than the pre-finished stuff and have better floors.  I've matched face nailed floors before, and it was not that hard to do...