Help with purchase decision!

[Vindingo]

In a month or two I am going to be redoing my mother's kitchen.  I have built a few kitchens, but this will be the first while not working in a woodshop.  I have shop space, but no stationary tools other than a drill press.  I have a TS55, CT Mini, RO150, Fein RT-1800 router, clamps... everything I really need to build frameless cabinets with slab doors.  I have built a few pantries and built-ins with the this set up and while it works, an entire kitchen would be extraordinarily tedious.

Since I do not have a table saw, my mother offered this deal -  she will buy me a Sawstop in exchange for building her kitchen cabinets

At first it seemed like a great idea, but then conscientiousness got the best of me.  I think I can get away with a cheaper set up, and one that could be more manageable in the future.  If all goes well, schooling will take me away from my shop for at least 4 years beginning next Sept.  If I do move away, my Festools can be packed up and stored in a closet.  After school, I have no idea when the next time I will have space for a table saw.         
 
The two options:

Sawstop contractor saw - how I would order it
52" rail
cast iron wings
mobile base
30" outfeed table
$2350
$1600 base w/ no upgrades

Festool setup
MFT/3
Clamping elements
Parallel guide set
another 55" Guide Rail
2 rail connectors 
$1150

I know the TS/MFT/Parallel guide can't replace a table saw, but will this $1200 investment in Festool accessories make my life that much easier on this cabinet job?  Do I get the Sawstop, use it for a year then sell it? 

Thoughts and advice are welcome.   

 

[BobKovacs]

I guess the question is, what would you see yourself using the tablesaw for?  If you're planning to break the sheet goods down with the TS55, the only use for the tablesaw would be to rip stock to width for faceframes, etc. 

I'd suggest springing for a 2700 or 3000 rail instead of another 55"- you'll still be way under your SawStop budget, and won't have to worry about connecting/disconnecting the 55" rails.

 

[Sean7a]

A well articulated and crafted post and a damn good question.

I think you know what the answer will be here on the forum and I'll let the experts give you the how's and why's.  My opinion?  Look at this practically.  You're saving space, you're saving money and you're also investing in your future.  The saw stop does not sound like a reasonable approach now (space wise) nor in the future.  THe sheer task of purchasing the machinery and then unloading it is enough to make me cringe.  The simplicity of dealing with the Festool system, just in a logistical sense, makes it the winner here.  Again, I won't speak about the actual functionality of the tools vs the cabinet saw ( I could, but let's leave that to the experts).

If I were in your shoes I'd shoot for ease of purchase, ease of setup, comfort 'n ease throughout the job, etc.  Fes, Fes, Fes.

 

[Bob Marino]

I would agree with Bob and Sean, the Festool system would be the preferred choice here, considering that you may be storing the setup for a years - and if you needed to sell it in the meantime for any reason, it's way easier logistics wise to sell Festool's tools than a 500 lb table saw. However, as everyone knows, a table saw can excel at certain tasks, but  you are not making rails and stiles for this kitchen either, where you set s that ts fence and just make those repetitive cuts.
  A question to ask yourself is how much time are you scheduling to complete this project? Be realistic and realize that most of these projects end up taking more time than initially thought - sometimes substantially more time. If you have that extra time in your  and your mom's schedule, it takes a whole lot of pressure off you.
Embarking on a full kitchen cabinet project is a daunting task and I admire your willingness and confidence to do so.

Bob

 

[fifo28]

When I first read your post - I thought this was an easy answer.  But on the second read I am rethinking this completely.  I have a SawStop and the Festool setup.  Its no fun cutting sheet goods on the TS (edit by Shane - table saw) and it also not a lot of fun cutting rail and stile components with the TS55.  But. it sounds like the cabinets that you will be making are standard European frameless cabinets and everything will be laminated.  Based on your needs and the fact that it sounds like you are going to be basically doing this one job I would go with the Festool setup for all of the reasons you mentioned.  If you were outfitting a shop (work or hobby) I would have answered differently, but that's not the case.

You could buy a used saw and then resell it, but that's some time and work.  You also did not mention a jointer or a planer so I am assuming wood doors etc are out.  So with this in mind I think you should consider adding a few items to your Festool list.  I would consider a better vac.  The mini is just that "mini" and it may become a real PITA changing bags etc, you may want to consider getting a larger vac.  Also you may want to consider getting the mfk 700 to make the laminate trimming easier and quicker.

Just my $0.02

[ Edited for clarification - please be careful using the abbreviation "TS" for table saw since it can also be read as "TS 55/75" - Shane ]

 

[Sparktrician]

I'd offer the suggestion that you consider getting two MFT/3s; one fully loaded and one basic, plus the connectors.  Having two makes a huge difference when breaking down sheet goods.  The second one is also very useful when cutting face frame components to length and supporting the cut-off pieces.  I think Bob Kovacs' comment regarding the 2700 or 3000 mm rail is quite valid.  I use two 1400 mm rails with connectors from time to time and have found that I need to be extra-careful when joining them to ensure that they line up dead-on, and use a known-good straightedge to verify that they're lined up before tightening the screws.  My two rails have a "good" end for joining, and I've marked them as such, but will likely pick up a longer rail in the future.  While I'd love to have the Sawstop, portability is a big thing with me, and the Sawstop ain't.  I'd echo fifo28's comment about getting a bigger dust extractor, and suggest the use of a Dust Deputy to make the bags last longer.  Coincidentally, there's a sale price on this model with a 20% reduction.

[smile]

 

[Mike Goetzke]

... as everyone knows, a table saw can excel at certain tasks, but  you are not making rails and stiles for this kitchen either, where you set s that ts fence and just make those repetitive cuts.
  A question to ask yourself is how much time are you scheduling to complete this project? Be realistic and realize that most of these projects end up taking more time than initially thought - sometimes substantially more time. If you have that extra time in your  and your mom's schedule, it takes a whole lot of pressure off you.
Embarking on a full kitchen cabinet project is a daunting task and I admire your willingness and confidence to do so.

Bob

Vindingo - Read what Bob says carefully. I'm a serious hobbyist that has liked woodworking since I was a young teen. I'm in my 50's now and have accumulated enough tools to build cabinets. About 1-1/2 years ago I started a kitchen make over and I'm guessing I still have about 9-months left. Mine included removing walls, electrical, plumbing, re-construction, and building the cabinets (plus keeping my day). As for the tools, I have a track saw system that utilizes a standard circular saw (Eurekazone). I have rails and a bench. I used the track saw system for all my cabinet boxes, but, I used my TS to cut the dados & grooves. I used rough sawn lumber so I use the track saw system quite a bit to rough trim my stock before milling it. Our cabinets are facefram with raised panel doors so I had lots of thin stock to rip - I used the TS for this. Plus, even though my bench is set up to accurately cross cut I still rely on my TS and crosscut sled to give me perfect 90 deg faces. My TS is a Uni but there are several high quality bench top or contractor saws out there. As far a safety - I recommend a SharkGuard splitter/guard. As far a the project goes I was able to have a stove, microwave, sink, dishwasher functional the whole time. This lessened the re-build burden. I don't have the space but some build the cabinets ahead of time and do a quick swap. Good luck on the project!

Mike

 

[fshanno]

Since you're just doing this one kitchen why not just source the whole thing?  Buy doors and drawer fronts from a high quality door maker and buy the case parts from a high quality case part maker.  Dovetail drawers too, assembled with the tails and pins slightly proud and sanded flush, just like you would make them.  Not that stuff from Kraftmaid.    I've gotten drawers that were really well made.  One outfit I know of does variably spaced dovetails.  Those folks will make the components to your exact dimensions, down to the 1/16th or millimeter using quality materials.  You'll be buying high quality hardware and drawer glides, so the results will be way better than catalog stuff.

Then, if you want to do something that will really wow you moms friends.  Try your hand at concrete countertops.   That will save your Mom thousands over pretty granite or quartz.

 

[tiralie]

Vindingo:
If you really want to build this rather than buy the components (a good idea) as fshanno says I would agree/suggest the following:
As Sparktrician  says get a second table it will help support the sheet goods and be a good assembly table while the second is set up for crosscutting etc.
As Bob says get a 3000 mm rail. Again this will make breaking down the sheet goods quicker.
While I have not built a kitchen I am fairly certain there are times during this project where you will need/want a good table saw. For those occasions I would rent one (portable contractors ie. Bosch 4000) or borrow a friends.
You could build an out feed table for the table saw that could be dismantled later.
I would think a good SCMS (sliding compound miter saw) would be handy as well but that's just me.
As you have already built kitchens you are more than aware of the amount of work and commitment that goes into it.
Good luck and post some pictures here so we can see what you have done.
Tim

 

[nickao]

Guys he states "I have built a few kitchens, but in a workshop". Why is anyone questioning whether he could or should do it or even telling him how much time it takes. From his original post he seems to know that already.

I would prefer the SawStop by a wide margin and everyone saying it is tough to cut plywood on a table saw, I say bull caca. I do it every single day and its no issue at all. This is not a little tiny site saw.

BUT, from what you state in your Original post I would go with the Festool stuff in this case. If you know you are going to sell the SawStop and that storage is an issue that is enough info right there to go with the Festool stuff. Of course I will store your SawStop in my shop no problem while you are away.  

 

[Bob Marino]

Guys he states "I have built a few kitchens, but in a workshop". Why is anyone questioning whether he could or should do it or even telling him how much time it takes. From his original post he seems to know that already.

I would prefer the SawStop by a wide margin and everyone saying it is tough to cut plywood on a table saw, I say bull caca. I do it every single day and its no issue at all. This is not a little tiny site saw.

BUT, from what you state in your Original post I would go with the Festool stuff in this case. If you know you are going to sell the SawStop and that storage is an issue that is enough info right there to go with the Festool stuff. Of course I will store your SawStop in my shop no problem while you are away.  

Good catch; I should have seen that one.

Bob

 

[Vindingo]

Thanks for all of the replies!!!

Admittedly, I posted here as opposed to SMC because I was leaning towards the Festool solution.  I also didn't want to here the BS about Sawstop over there.
The main reason I do not want to source the kitchen is because of cost, and  I want this kitchen to be cool... for lack of a better word.  My mother and I are both architects, so hopefully it won't be a cookie cutter kitchen.  For all intents and purposes I was a carpenter, and I still enjoy woodworking, but have decided to pursue another calling. Other than a few built-ins and a vanity I have lined up, this will probably be my last kitchen.    

I appreciate the advice about the 3000mm rail.  I had one, but never took it out of the box because it didn't fit in my car.  I always used my boss' long rail.  
Does joining two 1400 produce and inferior cut?

What I am really getting at is- how well do the MFT and paralle guide set up produce an easily repeatable( cabinet plywood/MDF parts) and square result?  I have read conflicting opinions on them and I'm trying to make a value judgement.  No hardwood, no faceframes, only ply and cabinet sized parts...  

I also like the idea of the second table next to the MFT.  Most likely that will be something I make and not a second MFT (that is T15 money  [smile] )  I have a Bosch Colt that I prefer for edge/laminate trimming and I didn't care for the MFK700 when I used it.  I also have a SCMS.    

Dust deputy - got to get one of those!        

I have given myself two months for this project.  It will probably take 3, and she keeps changing her mind about design.  So far we have decided on rift cut white oak stained grey, and a combo of concrete and butcher block countertops.  

Then, if you want to do something that will really wow you moms friends.  Try your hand at concrete countertops.   That will save your Mom thousands over pretty granite or quartz.

 [big grin]  I have done about a dozen concrete countertops... my mother has been on my case about making her some for about 5 years!

Moderators: If this is the inappropriate place to share these photos, please let me know.  I am always a fan of looking at pictures but I do not post here often, so I wish to respect your etiquette.  

Here are a few pictures of some of my past work:

These two projects were built on site with Festools:

 

[Bob Marino]

Thanks for all of the replies!!!

Admittedly, I posted here as opposed to SMC because I was leaning towards the Festool solution.  I also didn't want to here the BS about Sawstop over there.
The main reason I do not want to source the kitchen is because of cost, and  I want this kitchen to be cool... for lack of a better word.  My mother and I are both architects, so hopefully it won't be a cookie cutter kitchen.  For all intents and purposes I was a carpenter, and I still enjoy woodworking, but have decided to pursue another calling. Other than a few built-ins and a vanity I have lined up, this will probably be my last kitchen.    

I appreciate the advice about the 3000mm rail.  I had one, but never took it out of the box because it didn't fit in my car.  I always used my boss' long rail.  
Does joining two 1400 produce and inferior cut?

What I am really getting at is- how well do the MFT and paralle guide set up produce an easily repeatable( cabinet plywood/MDF parts) and square result?  I have read conflicting opinions on them and I'm trying to make a value judgement.  No hardwood, no faceframes, only ply and cabinet sized parts...  

I also like the idea of the second table next to the MFT.  Most likely that will be something I make and not a second MFT (that is T15 money  [smile] )  I have a Bosch Colt that I prefer for edge/laminate trimming and I didn't care for the MFK700 when I used it.  I also have a SCMS.    

Dust deputy - got to get one of those!        

I have given myself two months for this project.  It will probably take 3, and she keeps changing her mind about design.  So far we have decided on rift cut white oak stained grey, and a combo of concrete and butcher block countertops.  

Then, if you want to do something that will really wow you moms friends.  Try your hand at concrete countertops.   That will save your Mom thousands over pretty granite or quartz.

 [big grin]  I have done about a dozen concrete countertops... my mother has been on my case about making her some for about 5 years!

Moderators: If this is the inappropriate place to share these photos, please let me know.  I am always a fan of looking at pictures but I do not post here often, so I wish to respect your etiquette.  

Here are a few pictures of some of my past work:

These two projects were built on site with Festools:

Excellent work; absolutely pro level.

Bob

 

[greg mann]

Nothing inappropriate about posting your pics, except they are kind of humbling to a bunch of us. You asking someone like me for advice is something like Justin Verlander asking me how to pitch.

Good luck with your project, although it doesn't look to me like you will need to rely on luck.

 

[Wood_Junkie]

I’d suggest you invest in the Festool system setup, AND get an inexpensive (perhaps even used) portable / jobsite tablesaw.  These can be found for < $200 and will make your life a lot easier for rip cuts (which are a common need!).  Resell it when you’re done for minimal $$ loss.

I would skip the longer rail others suggested, for the simple reason that you are doing a one-off job (albeit, big), and you stated you’ll have to store it.  Those long rails aren’t exactly compact.  However, if you’re near Madison, Wisconsin I’ll gladly take it off your hands and “store” it for you for a few years!  ;-)

Anyway, a few other necessities you need to budget and factor in:
Joinery:  Nail guns and glue work are probably the lowest cost option.  Do you already own a compressor?  Pocket hole joinery is respectable and strong.
Dust collection:  The mini will get the job done, but you’ll fly through bags and $$.  I’d suggest a Dust Deputy (the original), which I recall seeing for like $60 nowadays.

 

[tiralie]

Does joining two 1400 produce and inferior cut?

No, it just takes more time.

What I am really getting at is- how well do the MFT and paralle guide set up produce an easily repeatable( cabinet plywood/MDF parts) and square result?  

Properly set up it does a great job of giving you square and repeatable parts. In the typical configuration there is a limitation to the size of parts you can produce. With a longer rail and the set up (on the short side) turned 90 degrees the table can handle a taller component.  Take a look at your cut list and make sure that the MFT will be able to accommodate the sizes you require.
After breaking down the sheets, is the MFT easier than a table saw to make square and repeatable components? No not really, but the good thing is you can pack it away and it doesn't take up a whole lot of space.

... and she keeps changing her mind about design.  So far we have decided on rift cut white oak stained grey, and a combo of concrete and butcher block counter tops.  

Sounds like a cool design.  My sympathies  [big grin] on getting a decision out of her.

Here are a few pictures of some of my past work

Nice looking work.
Tim

 

[fdengel]

Domino seems to be missing from your list...

The LR32 set is very nice and can save a lot of time, but you'd need a Festool router to go with it (you could get the 1400mm rail with the holes to support both the LR32 and the added length for the sheet goods), so you're getting closer to the SawStop price, if not going over...

 

[Vindingo]

Tim, your insight is much appreciated. 

Anyway, a few other necessities you need to budget and factor in:
Joinery:  Nail guns and glue work are probably the lowest cost option.  Do you already own a compressor?  Pocket hole joinery is respectable and strong.
Dust collection:  The mini will get the job done, but you’ll fly through bags and $$.  I’d suggest a Dust Deputy (the original), which I recall seeing for like $60 nowadays.

I've got a compressor and nailguns, but I was thinking of going with a Kreg jig.  I have never used pocket holes before, but the seem attractive.  All the other cases I have built were biscuit and screws with a dado'd in back. 

I have been going over the biscuit joiner vs Kreg jig debate on various websites for about a week and I am leaning towards pocket screws.  I'd love a domino, but it just isn't in the cards for this one.  I have been on the look out for a used OF1400.  In conjunction with dust collection and accessories, it is probably one of the most useful handheld powertools I have ever used. I have thought about the Dowelmax as well, but it is 3x the Kreg kit.   

   

 

[fifo28]

If you decide to go with the LR32 system you DO NOT need additional rails.  The LR32 rails can be used for everything.  It makes going with the LR32 system more affordable if you don't already have rails.

 

[Vindingo]

Nothing inappropriate about posting your pics, except they are kind of humbling to a bunch of us. You asking someone like me for advice is something like Justin Verlander asking me how to pitch.

Good luck with your project, although it doesn't look to me like you will need to rely on luck.

Thank you for the compliment Gerg.  You can always learn something for someone...

I had a boss once (coincidentally the guy who turned me on to Festool) who told me that he was the best carpenter he had ever met.  Truth is, he wasn't that good, and it was that attitude that held him back.  Returning to school has taught me that half the battle is being humble, and having the courage to ask questions.