HKC 55 which one

[BJM9818]

Hi Everybody!

I have a deck I’m redoing. Replacing Gen 1 Trex with new Trex transcend.

I need to add three sets of stairs so thinking of getting the HKC. I noticed on ToolNuts website they have a few different models. I’m assuming same saw but only one says Bluetooth?

I want the track with it. What size is most useful?
Don’t necessarily need the batteries and charger but from The look of the combo’s it’s not a lot more. 

 

[rst]

I bought the 18v HKC with all three rails when they first came out and used it to build steps and decks for both my children's houses.  Having the three rails allowed me to set the angles for the steps and allowed me to cut them out in under 1/2 hour.

 

[cpw]

I like the short 250 rail for general cross cutting of boards.  For the steps, you may need the longer 420 rail to cut 2x12s on an angle for the stringers.

 

[BJM9818]

Thanks for the reply’s. Looks like only the basic tool is in stock so I will add the 420 rail and see how that works out. 

Stupid question but does the HKC also fit on the standard Festool track rail if I want to make a longer cut and not use my TS55 or 75? 

 

[rst]

The HKC will work on the standard rails, make sure the blade has the identical offset to the TS or you're anti splinter may be cut different.

 

[cpw]

Thanks for the reply’s. Looks like only the basic tool is in stock so I will add the 420 rail and see how that works out. 

Stupid question but does the HKC also fit on the standard Festool track rail if I want to make a longer cut and not use my TS55 or 75?

Yes, in the regular configuration I found the cordless HKC much more convenient than my TS75 for crosscutting plywood, zip, etc. on the regular rails with a TSO square.

You can even plunge cut it as well, not as conveniently as the TS saws; there is a button to unlock it and then you get one plunge and it will lock back as soon as you reach the right depth.  Sedge showed it on one of the Festool lives.

 

[Imemiter]

I have the two shortest FSK rails. For stringers I've found that an FS-WA with whatever length of rail needed works better because the reference "fence" runs under the rail getting me closer to the end of a board (for that bottom tread cut, for instance.) The FSK's "fence" is to the left of the rail and I often found myself running out of stock to reference against.

It isn't really a big deal as you can just align the splinter tape and cut away. But if you've got any length of rail already, the FS-WA can be a good alternative to the FSK 670.

Other than the HKC I haven't bought a Festool track saw. Yet  [smile]. As a residential carpenter I cut more boards than sheet goods, so cordless is kind of a must. I've also gotten quite fond of the forward mounted blade guard lifter and the way the plunge mechanism works. I only wish it had a bigger blade, a little more muscle, and as usual, an LED.   

 

[BJM9818]

Ordered the HKC basic and 420 rail.  The only thing in stock right now.  I can see how the smaller rail would be better for cross cutting 2x lumber but right now I’ve treated myself to way to many tools on this job already.

Side note. A Mud Mixer is awesome if you need to only mix a yard or two of concrete. 

 

[thudchkr]

Ordered the HKC basic and 420 rail.  The only thing in stock right now.  I can see how the smaller rail would be better for cross cutting 2x lumber but right now I’ve treated myself to way to many tools on this job already.

Side note. A Mud Mixer is awesome if you need to only mix a yard or two of concrete.

I couldn’t imagine mixing a “yard of concrete” with any type of hand mixer. Did you mean to say a “bag” or two.  I could imagine it working well at that scale.

 

[mino]

Ordered the HKC basic and 420 rail.  The only thing in stock right now.  I can see how the smaller rail would be better for cross cutting 2x lumber but right now I’ve treated myself to way to many tools on this job already.

Side note. A Mud Mixer is awesome if you need to only mix a yard or two of concrete.

I couldn’t imagine mixing a “yard of concrete” with any type of hand mixer. Did you mean to say a “bag” or two.  I could imagine it working well at that scale.

Well, over here, for a "bag or two" of prepared concrete, even a cordless drill like the DRC 18 does just fine. Not that long ago, did two bags. Used half a 5.2 battery and all was done in an hour or so.

What is key is using the correct mixing paddle ... i have a "spiral wire" one optimised for high-viscosity stuff. Bought it like 20 yrs agos and still goes strong. Works great using weaker drill or drill driver to mix highly viscous stuff like concrete.

Looks like this:https://goldblattusa.com/product/spiral-mixer/

Concrete from one or two bags of cement is a different matter ... there the hand mixer is worth it. Guess we are just too lazy over here to pull a proper mixer up for an "afternoon job".

 

[Michael Kellough]

[member=61254]mino[/member]  I’ve managed to maintain my ignorance about concrete/cement for many years but if you’d like to explain the difference I’ll pay attention.

You said a cordless drill is good enough to mix a “bag or two” of prepared concrete.
Then at the end of you post you said “Concrete from one or two bags of cement is a different matter”

Would you elaborate please?

 

[mino]

[member=61254]mino[/member]  I’ve managed to maintain my ignorance about concrete/cement for many years but if you’d like to explain the difference I’ll pay attention.

You said a cordless drill is good enough to mix a “nag or two” of prepared concrete.
Then at the end of you post you said “Concrete from one or two bags of cement is a different matter”

Would you elaborate please?

"Bag of cement" as a measure of concrete quantity => over here we make LOTS of stuff from concrete, way more so than from wood. So purchasing "concrete" bags is seen as cost-prohibitive and done only for very small jobs, mostly inside buildings and such. There a good cordless drill is all that is needed.

For anything bigger, the concrete is made from ingredients with only cement being in bags. The way to quantify the amount of concrete is thus often done in "of bags (of cement)".

As you know, when making concrete you need water + cement + sand/gravel/stones in a correct ratio where the water-cement ratio is the most important while one can tune the gravel/stone ratio a bit. ref:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_concrete#Modern_concrete

So concrete (quantity) "of one bag (of cement)" is equivalent to 5-10 bags of pre-mixed concrete. Or 50-100 cubic liters.

Folks would usually have some gravel/sand pile ready at their property - bought in bulk - and only purchase cement bags as need since those are tricky to store long term. This is also common on (small) building sites that do not have reliable dry-storage for cement.

ADD:
Reading again the OP post, I think I unconsciously mind-translated "yard or two of concrete" into "meter or two of concrete" and then applied the non-length meaning of "meter"*) to it, ending up with concrete quantity of 1-2 bags (of cement). Woohaa!

Sorry for the confusion. Just now noticed the "yard" in there ... which is certainly not a measure of volume or weight ...

*) A "meter/metre" of something is here a common saying for "100kg" of something and in some cases also "100 litres" of something. Depends. Hence concrete of one bag (of cement) can also be (about) 1 "meter" of concrete. This stuff with coloquial units can get messy.

 

[woodbutcherbower]

A cubic yard/metre of concrete weighs almost 2.5 tons. Not an ideal job for a battery drill ......

 

[squall_line]

Not to continue to go too far off-topic, but "Mud Mixer" is a specific product that is essentially a mixing tub on wheels with a horizontal auger chute and hose hookups that control the water flow/ratio.  It looks a lot like a small grain hauler, but with only two wheels and a wagon handle (I have no affiliation, I just know of the product).
https://mudmixer.com

In the States, "A yard" is shorthand for "a cubic yard", or 27 cubic feet.  At that volume, it would definitely be the tool to use, inasmuch as you can hook up a garden hose, set the ratio, lift your bags into the hopper one at a time, and churn out mixed product using the auger chute to direct the flow of the final mix.

Likely cheaper to rent than calling in an order from a pre-mix yard, especially for only one or two yards of mix, and definitely if the work site isn't immediately accessible by a mixing truck.

I know a guy around here who does (or used to) keep a list of veterans who wanted flagpoles in their front yard and he would stop by any time he had a job that had a few cu ft left over, providing the mix for the base of the pole before washing the rest of it out.

 

[Ron B]

As a kid on the farm, we used to mix concrete with a mixer mounted on the 3pt hitch of a tractor running off the PTO.  That was in the 1960s so I am reaching back but I think these numbers are accurate.

A bag of cement is 94 lbs of portland cement.  Normal mix was a 5 bag mix per yard or 470 lbs of cement.  The ratio was 2 scoops sand, 3 scoops gravel, 1 scoop portland cement.  This is about 3000 psi.

For 4000 PSI concrete, I think the formula was 6 bags portland cement per yard or 564 lbs.  So us old-timers refer to concrete as a five or six bag mix. 

When I mix concrete with portland cement, I look for the freshest bag possible.  You want a bag that feels like it is full of flour when you pick it up, if the bag is stiff it is not fresh.  Sometimes it helps to drop the bag a couple of times to loosen it up.  I just remember how heavy those 94 lb. bags of limp cement were.

With that tractor mounted mixer, I remember we poured the footers for a 30'x72' farrowing house and then poured the floor shoveling all that sand, gravel and cement into the mixer one scoop at a time.  But we thought that mixer was the cat's meow because before that all we had was a stationary hand mixer. 

 

[mino]

Hmm.

Wondering how the HKC 55 would handle that 4000 PSI concrete you mention. Some special blade possibly ?

[big grin]

 

[Michael Kellough]

Thanks for the concrete info guys. That Mud Mixer does look useful!

Watched a video of the MM in use. Went well until a rock in the bag was a little too big for the auger and  James it. Then all the stuff has to get dumped out the top to clear the rack. Seems like it would have a screen inside to prevent that…

 

[BJM9818]

Wow step away for a day and  [cool] [cool]things go sideways.

Yes I was talking about a cubic yard- actually used two cubic yards. 84 80lb bags for some new deck footers. The old ones sank 3”.

The Mud Mixer was a expensive $3500 purchase but me and my guy banged out the 2 cubic yards in a little over two hours. We were above on the existing deck framing dropping the concrete into each hole. 

I purchased the additional hopper extension so it will hold 300lbs of mix. One guy can easily load and operate the machine. 

I have a basement Bilco door replacement coming and the cement is shot so the entire concrete frame and steps need to be removed and repoured so will try and keep this machine busy. Cost of a mini redo mix truck is over $1k for a few yards so $250/yard for bags isn’t too bad if you can bang out a yard in under a hour with only one guy.

 

[mino]

Wow step away for a day and  [cool] [cool]things go sideways.

Yes I was talking about a cubic yard- actually used two cubic yards. 84 80lb bags for some new deck footers. The old ones sank 3”.

The Mud Mixer was a expensive $3500 purchase but me and my guy banged out the 2 cubic yards in a little over two hours. We were above on the existing deck framing dropping the concrete into each hole. 

I purchased the additional hopper extension so it will hold 300lbs of mix. One guy can easily load and operate the machine. 

I have a basement Bilco door replacement coming and the cement is shot so the entire concrete frame and steps need to be removed and repoured so will try and keep this machine busy. Cost of a mini redo mix truck is over $1k for a few yards so $250/yard for bags isn’t too bad if you can bang out a yard in under a hour with only one guy.

Over here a cubic (meter) of concrete goes about $120 but the minimum order is about 3-5 m3 with price not decreasing if one needs less. We do a lot of concrete stuff over here, so there are a lot of economies of scale to be had in the industry. Pretty much every town has a specialised concrete plant so the drive of the mixer is a non-issue and mostly free of charge.

The pre-mixed bags are about the same cost as in US.

Making own concrete in a mixer can get the price down to about $60-80 per cubic meter which is worth it for smaller jobs or when one cannot get a mixer close to the place. Usually we use the classical small mixers for those quantities. The Mud Mixer type thing would not work as it needs pre-mixed bags I believe.

 

[BJM9818]

Wow step away for a day and  [cool] [cool]things go sideways.

Yes I was talking about a cubic yard- actually used two cubic yards. 84 80lb bags for some new deck footers. The old ones sank 3”.

The Mud Mixer was a expensive $3500 purchase but me and my guy banged out the 2 cubic yards in a little over two hours. We were above on the existing deck framing dropping the concrete into each hole. 

I purchased the additional hopper extension so it will hold 300lbs of mix. One guy can easily load and operate the machine. 

I have a basement Bilco door replacement coming and the cement is shot so the entire concrete frame and steps need to be removed and repoured so will try and keep this machine busy. Cost of a mini redo mix truck is over $1k for a few yards so $250/yard for bags isn’t too bad if you can bang out a yard in under a hour with only one guy.

Over here a cubic (meter) of concrete goes about $120 but the minimum order is about 3-5 m3 with price not decreasing if one needs less. We do a lot of concrete stuff over here, so there are a lot of economies of scale to be had in the industry. Pretty much every town has a specialised concrete plant so the drive of the mixer is a non-issue and mostly free of charge.

The pre-mixed bags are about the same cost as in US.

Making own concrete in a mixer can get the price down to about $60-80 per cubic meter which is worth it for smaller jobs or when one cannot get a mixer close to the place. Usually we use the classical small mixers for those quantities. The Mud Mixer type thing would not work as it needs pre-mixed bags I believe.

A full cement truck used to be $1200 so your $120/yard is good but you needed to pay for all 10. Now it’s up to $2k+

They have smaller 3-5yard trucks but they are $6-800 minimums.

Deck is in the back of a very large house. No way I could back a cement truck up any where close so driving my one trailer with two pallets of bags 100’ from the deck and using a small cart to get them the rest of the way worked nicely. 

Sagging footers were a add on after we removed all. the deck boards so my change order covered the material mixer and my two guys digging and pouring.

HKC arrives tomorrow. Will have to wait the weekend before I can try it out.