Home made CMS thread?

[Dan Clark]

The question is NOT whether something is unsafe.  Getting up in the morning is unsafe!  

Like any company, Festool is wrestling with how to protect themselves.   They make tools that are safer than most other brands.   So now someone posts a video of how to defeat Festool safeguards.  I'm 100% sure that company management and attorneys asked themselves:

- If we leave this video/posts up, can we be successfully sued for condoning unsafe use of our tools?    

- What constitutes unsafe?

- How unsafe is it?  What's the risk for the user?

I'll give you my opinion, but like the rest of you, my opinion isn't worth much.  We are the NOT a judge and jury who would decide this in a court of law.  

Festool is trying to do the smart thing - walk a fine balance of reducing the risk and still not overly irritate the customers.  

Taking some of the comments here, what is the downside for Festool of:

- Condoning customers buying online and saving taxes?   Not much, IMO.  This is known, standard practice everywhere.    And Festool is small potatoes.  There are much bigger, juicier targets out there.  

- Using a Jigsaw mounted in a table.   It's a moderate risk, but there are lots of examples of people doing this with saws.   A bandsaw normally works this way.  In any case, how badly can someone hurt themselves?   Maybe a nasty cut, but that's about it.  

- Creating a table saw out of plunge saw.   Now we're talking high risk!   Table saws are one of the riskiest tools out there.   They lop off fingers.   Kickback is a common problem.  

Posting a notice about NOT using your TS55 as a table saw is one thing.   Regardless of how many disclaimers Festool posts, the video showed HOW to do it.   Any minimally competent attorney could run with that easily.  Here's how it would go...

Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury...   Festool KNOWINGLY helped customers use Festool plunge saws in an unsafe manner!  KNOWINGLY!!!   Yes, they put up a disclaimer, but they SHOWED you how to do it!   They condone it! They were saying, 'Do not do this.  Wink, wink!  But here's how ya do it!'  My client lost three fingers because of Festool.  

And we know their motivation.  It's money! Filthy MONEY!!!  They just want to sell more of their damn saws!!!

I ask you to award my client $1,000,000 for pain and suffering.   As for the future, to ensure that innocent people are protected from this dangerous tool in the future, we will seek to have UL approval revoked so that this dangerous German tool can no longer be sold in the US.

 

Is that over the top?  I don't think so.  But even if it is, would you want to take the risk if you were Festool?  Think about it!

Regards,

Dan.

p.s. the other issue is HOW Festool communicates this to FOG members so they don't feel threatened.

 

[butzla]

I believe Shane when he said he removed it for safety reasons rather than removing the competition.  After all, he hasn't removed Rick Christopherson's thread RE: his Domino Guide.
I didn't mean to stir up such a can of worms when I started this thread.  Jeez.  [embarassed].  I wish I merely PM-ed you directly, Shane.  My bad.

 

[Brice Burrell]

p.s. the other issue is HOW Festool communicates this to FOG members so they don't feel threatened.

Dan, you're right. This is the issue here. I think we all can understand that Festool needs to protect us (read themselves) even if we don't necessarily want to be protected. We need to come to terms with this, there is just no way around it. So that brings us to the issue of how should these threads with safety concerns be handled in the future?

Deletion without notice.
Well, that was tried and it didn't go over to great with the membership.

Warnings from FOG mods or admin before the content crosses the line of being to dangerous/inappropriate.
I think this would be a good idea when appropriate.

Deletion of inappropriate or unsafe post(s)/content only, not the entire thread with explanation for deletion.
This seems sensible.

Deletion of entire threads only when absolutely necessary, with explanation for deletion in separate thread. This would help prevent confusion or suspicion of why a thread is gone.

Anyone else want to offer some feedback?

 

[Jimhart]

I think leaving the subject line intact, then deleting the post and putting a "This thread/post was deleted because Festool USA deemed it to demonstrate Festool products being used in an unsafe manner'  would be great.

The liability issue is huge, at the same time I think transparency is important when deleting content.

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

Thank you for the replies.  

The fact is that we have members who practice varying degrees of personal safety.  I'd like to thank Dan in particular for his insight.  Jim, no worries on starting the thread.  There was no intent to hide anything from members.  However, the removal probably could have been handled in a way that would have caused less controversy.  For that, my apologies are offered to the group.

Brice and Jim Hart have some good points to consider regarding improvements to the process.  I would like to see us work toward a common ground regarding a procedure and hope we can reach a consensus on how to handle this in the future as not to disrupt the forum.  However, I would prefer not to have a scenario where the removal of material deemed unsafe becomes a debate.  The topic-starters, in these cases, where aware that the threads were being removed or volunteered to have it removed.  As Tom had stated, he sent an email to Christian and I offering to have the threads removed.  I think he probably realized the possible implications now that we own the forum.  I would also like to express my appreciation for Tom's gesture.

To answer the question about what constitutes a post that may be removed because it's deemed unsafe...  I would define it as describing or, more importantly, demonstrating a technique that, if replicated, has a reasonable likelihood of presenting a situation that could result in personal injury.  I don't think any of us would want to see a fellow member (or even an unknown visitor) of this forum injured as a result of attempting something shown here.  We have tens of thousands of members and visitors that represent all levels of skill from over 160 countries visiting the site on a regular basis.  Some would argue for or against how safe Steve's product might be.  But none of us, as far as I know, are experts on power tool design and safety.  That's why we have independent agencies for testing and certifying products' safety.  In instances where we are unsure, I think the content needs to be removed.

I can understand that some members are concerned.  I can also understand that being a company-owned forum there is going to be some scrutiny over the administration of the site.  But, there has been very little done in the way of moderation and members have continued to be able to speak freely about all types of matters.  Tool problems, product comparisons, likes/dislikes about products, competitive products, etc.  I think we have been very open to providing members an environment where they can speak freely.

Lastly, Forrest and Peter do volunteer their time and energy to help make this a pleasant place for everyone.  If there are issues with the policies of the forum, I would respectfully ask that they not be criticized.  I appreciate their efforts and would like to commend them again for their work here.  It's a fairly thankless task and we owe them our respect in my opinion.

I genuinely want this to continue to be a great place for members and visitors to enjoy.  I hope members can understand our position and responsibility as owners of the forum regardless of their own choices with regard to personal safety.

Thank you.

 

[Dane]

Hello-

While I do not spend a lot of time posting on this site, I do spend a great deal of time reading and learning.  I think this is the case for many of us.  So I thought I would speak up for a moment in the interests of the many folks who are often not very vocal about what goes on here.

A lot of people, beginners and pros alike, rely on this site for the very valuable information that is disseminated from the users that are generous enough to share their vast knowledge.  While some of us do not post often, it is just as much a resource for us as it is for the members with the multiple hundred post counts.  I think that it would be a shame to jepordize the 99.9% of content that is sanctioned by Festool to stand up for the right of a single post or even a category of post (i.e. off label use of the tools) to exist.  Unfortunately, that is a real risk, forums are closed all the time when the folks that run them find them to be too risky to their self-interest to maintain.  This thread is dangling on the edge of becoming like the blowup of a few years ago that caused so much trouble.  Were it any administrator other than Matthew, I think that it would have been very likely that the FOG could have closed down then.  With all of the legal speculating and general negative emotion towards the company that is beginning to come about in this thread, I think that any reasonable company may begin to reevaluate their choice to administrate a forum that might open them to legal risk.  

I think that it would be prudent for the members who tend to become emotional and vociferous when things like this come up to say their piece and move on. I think that would allow the issue to have a full hearing without dragging on for weeks on end and clogging the board up with a single thread.  I recognize that folks have a strong sense of ownership over this forum, but is it worth risking the entire thing over this?  I think that even absent the few threads that Festool finds in some way risky, this forum is still a fabulous resource and one that no one here would like to see lost.

That said, I have an idea for keeping the threads that might be controversial in the public domain without risking Festool liability.  The administrators could delete the content of the thread while still leaving the title as a place holder and place a note in the thread body informing the forum of the deletion.  Then, notify the poster of the pending deletion and allow the poster to move the content of the thread to a privately held forum like TalkFestool.  That way we would all know where to find it and Festool can say that they did not condone the behavior in the thread and deleted it to protect themselves from any legal liability.

Anyway, thanks from the lurkers.

 

[Mac]

I'm a simple sort of fellow, but here's my view.

This forum is outstanding. Shane and his colleagues add to the positive ethos here daily, as do Peter and Forrest.  They all have a responsibility to keep this professional and to build on the strengths Matthew left behind, and they do this extremely well.  Let them do their job, they know what they're doing. If someone makes a posting they feel isn't quite right, they should handle it as they deem best; even if sometimes we might have done so differently, I will respect them every time for making the call as best they can.

Other than that, ain't Festool tools awesome!  Life's too short for falling out, let's talk about the tools instead!

Cheerio,
Rick

 

[Garibaldi]

If MTV could get away with "Jackass" for as long as it did with no serious litigation, I really don't think Festool has too much to worry about from postings in a public forum about a product they have nothing to do with.  People have been turning their circular saws upside down for decades. While the product itself doesn't look that dangerous, the demo video is just plain terrifying  [scared]  But then, people do that sort of thing every day with their table saws (and, yes, many of them continue to do that with their remaining stumps).  But once again, Festool had nothing to do with that video.  Granted, in the US, there's always a possibility of somebody actually getting a lawsuit rolling for something like this, but it would be a fluke for a judge or jury to take it seriously,  at least against Festool just because it was posted here. 

Festool just needs to get the CMS distribution in the US rolling.  Skil has been turning their tools upside down with the X-Bench for years, with the exception of a circular saw, so I can't believe Festool can't get approval to do the same.

Of course to prevent home-made attempts, the cost needs to be reasonable, and the cost of the CMS is just plain silly, even for Festool.