How do we get the FOG back on track?

[Kevin McConville]

Let me start by saying I know this is long winded and some of it blunt (and may be out of line - but it needs to be said)

The question has come up lately about what is wrong with the FOG lately and how do we get a positive constructive vibe back.  This doesn't have to be a Festool is great vibe but rather one where genuine information and help is asked for and given. It's been very frustrating lately getting value from the time I spend here and I suspect others feel the same, many of the regulars that I appreciated reading posts from have simply stopped posting or have abandoned the FOG altogether.  I don't know which came first the camp which pushes Festool is great or the camp that joins just to say Festool sucks.  Either way it's making this forum less enjoyable and helpful than before.

Take for instance the recent discourse between a couple of our members, one of which was a moderator who is clearly frustrated by the deterioration of something he cares about a great deal and has invested his personal time into managing and one, who in my personal opinion is someone with nothing more than an anti-Festool agenda for what purpose I don't know or care.

The internet and online forums are easy targets for people with agendas to hijack for their own purposes and need constant oversight to prevent them from spoiling the environment for all the rest.  Since Shane has left for other opportunities I can't help but feel the owners of this forum have lost interest in it and have left the moderators pretty much on their own to try and keep the ship going and this I think is where the problem lies. I wish the discourse was handled a bit differently by the moderator but I feel his frustration and now understand where it came from.

Here are some of the recent things posted that frustrate me as I try to use the FOG to get genuine information and feedback from other members, I'm finding I have to waste time determining a posters intentions before I make the mistake of taking the information at face value.  Something that used to be better when more support was provided.

One of the moderators posts was quite surprising and out of character so I spent some time to read all 158 posts from the other member, a non stop barrage of anti-Festool sentiments.  Feel free to go and read them yourselves, here is what I observed.

The fact that i already have the MFT is because i have a very small workshop with no room for storing a miter saw. I also do a lot of work with 2400x600 pine sheets and the MFT is brilliant for accurate splitting of these plates. The GKS saw works with the MFT, but as i said it lacks the plunge action and proper dust extraction. The workflow is therefore limited.

So far it serns like people who join rails multiple times a day prefer the Bosch due to time savings. How about the micro adjust and splinter guard then?

The micro adjust is a feature I couldn't decide about. In the end I decided for my purposes and the intended use I had for the saw, the ability to adjust in 1mm increments was perfectly adequate. I've had the GKT55 for 5 years now and haven't come across a situation where I needed the micro adjustment. This is probably because my workflow when using the saw is to have something sacrificial underneath the workpiece to ensure as clean a cut as is possible. As would happen with the MDF top of your MFT/3

As for the splinter guard, I'm not sure what benefit it brings over the results from the Bosch. I use mine on solid materials and wood veneers with the 48 tooth best for wood blade and the cut couldn't get any cleaner IMO. I guess if you're using it on melamine faced chipboard with an extremely thin (cheap) laminate facing it might offer some benefit, but I stay away from this material in the work I do. Also the fact it has to be put on and off rather than being a permanent feature made me think it wasn't worth the hassle.

So for me, the rail system of the Bosch gave more meaningful, real world benefits, than the ability to adjust beyond 1mm increments.

The poster is quite clear about the make and model of the track saw he's providing feedback on as he has owned it for "5 years now" but in post 158 on April 19th he had Mafell and he had this comment from post 136 on April 24th "I have the Mafell and a guy who I work with has the Bosch. To be perfectly honest the Bosch makes me question why I spent the extra money on the Mafell." Post 51 on May 24th "I have a Mafell and it is simply the superb."

Several opinions and feedback are given on drills and even disparaged one member in post 151 on April 20th stating "I also have a Makita 18v (brushless) impact driver. I think it is a very competent piece of kit and wouldn't change it unless it broke as it does what is expected of an impact driver to a high standard. I've yet to find a screw big enough that it can't handle". Post 100 on April 30th "I have Makita 18v and 10.8v drills/impact drivers". The strange part is in post 55 on May 19th he has the following "I have a Makita 10.8v Impact driver for most tasks. It's great, really good power and lightweight.  I have a Ryobi 18v also and was considering upgrading it to a brushless Makita 18v to match my combo drill, but when I actually thought about how often I need the 18v over the 10.8v, I realised I very rarely used it..."  Why would someone who repeatedly says they have a Makita 18v and go into detail about how good it is then say just 3 weeks later they have a Ryobi 18v and have considered upgrading to the Makita? Don't they already have the Makita?

As I said I have no idea what this person's agenda and purpose for joining the FOG is but it certainly isn't to share information and feedback in a genuine, open and truthful manner. 

Ultimately my question is;

When can we expect the site owners to get involved and help us and the moderators get this forum back to being useful before it becomes completely corrupted?

 

[CrazyLarry]

Looks like a Troll ... smells like a Troll?

 

[John H]

So your going to get it "back on track" by calling out and attacking the members that you personally don't agree with?  [eek]

 

[Kevin McConville]

I don't have an issue with him not agreeing with me and I never said we didn't agree. For example I'm not really sure what his real position is on drills but I'm pretty sure he and I are of the same opinion that Festool is not the way to go for drills. I don't own one so I may be wrong, and if you or others see the value in them then more power to you, maybe someday I will too but not for now.  What I said was that I'm concerned that the information and feedback available to us on the FOG is getting corrupted by some who appear to have their own agenda and highlighted one that fit that clearly in the hope that we may get something resolved.

 

[CrazyLarry]

I don't have an issue with him not agreeing with me and I never said we didn't agree. For example I'm not really sure what his real position is on drills but I'm pretty sure he and I are of the same opinion that Festool is not the way to go for drills. I don't own one so I may be wrong, and if you or others see the value in them then more power to you, maybe someday I will too but not for now.  What I said was that I'm concerned that the information and feedback available to us on the FOG is getting corrupted by some who appear to have their own agenda and highlighted one that fit that clearly in the hope that we may get something resolved.

Short of having an arduous registration process with an exam and or blood sample, how can you select?

And what are the criteria pro CT? pro Kapex? pro CXS? nevermind the bushfire starting parallel guides or carvex!!!

 

[Kevin McConville]

Don't know that there needs to be such a thing as a criteria or how ones tests ones intentions when posting. Some get tripped up early and move on and others build longer stories and lose track of what they said in past.  Again - just my opinion but it certainly seemed to get dealt with faster and less bloody when Festool provided full time support to the forum and the moderators.  I have to believe these are issues that most if not all internet forums face so there must be a body of work outlining how to manage this issue.

 

[Tinker]

Umpty-umpty-misery-misery!!! [huh]
Tinker

 

[aas]

For a start, if there are issues with a particular user, deal with the moderators, that's what they're there for. This is an absolute appalling thread and you should be ashamed with yourself for stooping to this level. This is exactly the sort of thread that derails a forum!

Who cares if someone thinks they've got a Makita and then they haven't... maybe it's a mixup with words, maybe they meant to say I borrowed one, I used one - but who cares??? really?

It's very easy to pick out a troll, and if someone is a troll, it's very easy to ignore their threads. The guy you are talking about has also commented about Festools he likes, let the guy have his opinion.

The whole point about a forum like is this is that we can agree and disagree, discuss etc...

Do you really want a forum where there are no negative comments? Sure, it's best when it is constructive criticism, but hey, no one's perfect. And Festool aren't perfect either - but I admire them for allowing the debates from all sides on their user forum.

The moderators do a great job, and if the site ever became over-moderated, it would lose all credibility...

 

[TylerC]

First off, I appreciate the thoughtful feedback. I can absolutely assure you that Festool highly values the FOG, and we want this to be a thriving community. Festool employees have been less involved since Shane left, but that's mostly been because of a lack of manpower -- not necessary a lack of interest.

We'd like to find a good balance of keeping this run by the community (i.e. not having Festool employees push an agenda or get too intrusive) and making sure that Festool is an active part of the community.

We certainly don't want the FOG to be dragged down by trolls, but we also don't want to stifle critical conversation. Maybe a good step is to have a renewed conversation about rules and expectations. That way people aren't surprised if/when moderators or Festool employees crack down on things. Free conversation is important here, but we also want this to be a positive, valuable place. (Not saying that everything has to be positive about Festool.)

 

[Kevin McConville]

Couple of things;

Tyler - I know it's hard not to take my comments personally but please understand they are not directed at you or other individuals but instead at Management commitment and support.

aas - I'm sorry you feel that way but that is your right to if you so choose. I'm not ashamed of myself in any way, nor do I feel you should be ashamed for posting that about me instead of " if there are issues with a particular user, deal with the moderators, that's what they're there for", I learned a long time ago that when in a glass house one should be careful throwing stones.  I don't know what I have said to give the impression that I only want Festool cheerleaders as I myself have been harsh in past, particularly regarding price increases.

Other than one individual that I have an issue with I hope the rest of you take this for what it was meant to be - a genuine desire to help get the forum back that has been a valuable resource in the past.

 

[Tyler Ernsberger]

I agree with your post about sometimes people not giving good advice and or their advice is not valid.  Its pretty easy to see if someone is qualified just based on their post.  Fortunately there's a lot of people on FOG including the moderators that know a lot about Festool, woodworking, carpentry, painting and other tools to help out.  Not sure what you want out of this?  Maybe we can development an lie detector app to make sure everyone is truthful before they post lol.

Its my theory there's 3 types of FOG members

1.  Professionals.  Use the Festools and other tools every day.  They use there tools to make money and use their tools hard.

2. Hobbyists/diyers.  They use Festool and other tools for home projects or helping out friends.

3.  Collecters.  Buy the tools just to either say they have it or just like having a tool for everything and rarely using them. 

I really miss Shane being part of the Festool team.  His shoes will be hard to fill.  Even the Festool Website has suffered since Shanes leave.  I feel like Brent and others are doing a great job.  Being a man down has to be hard.  They will work it out.  Glad to see TylerC has joined the FOG team!!!

 

[TylerC]

Thanks, @Woodn't It Be Neat. I'm too new to have my feelings hurt. I won't start majorly screwing things up until next week at the earliest.  [scared]

 

[aas]

Couple of things;

Tyler - I know it's hard not to take my comments personally but please understand they are not directed at you or other individuals but instead at Management commitment and support.

aas - I'm sorry you feel that way but that is your right to if you so choose. I'm not ashamed of myself in any way, nor do I feel you should be ashamed for posting that about me instead of " if there are issues with a particular user, deal with the moderators, that's what they're there for", I learned a long time ago that when in a glass house one should be careful throwing stones.  I don't know what I have said to give the impression that I only want Festool cheerleaders as I myself have been harsh in past, particularly regarding price increases.

Other than one individual that I have an issue with I hope the rest of you take this for what it was meant to be - a genuine desire to help get the forum back that has been a valuable resource in the past.

Re-read my post carefully - I haven't posted anything about you... your comments about the one user whom you admit you have problems with are shameful.
I accept that your intentions may have been good, but personally criticising the way you have, detailing his posts, his contradictions... I mean, man!.. thats bordering on psycho!   [poke]

 

[Holmz]

One would not believe that tools can generate such a passionate response.
You would need a team of psychologists and social science people to start on it.
If it was all fact it would be easy.

I do like the project section a lot.
However the tools section has people that generally already know what they want before they post their question..

 

[Cheese]

[member=57769]TylerC[/member]
One of the issues that I feel may lessen the amount of bashing which then usually turns into a tirade of some sort, is to have more feedback from a Festool technical service/field service rep or better yet, an on-staff engineer. A few months back someone dissected a TS 55 saw and mentioned that because it had a bronze bushing and not a ball bearing that it was a design fault. At the time, I stated that in this application, the bronze bushing was bomb proof but that didn't stop anyone from continuing to call it a design flaw and then the thread skyrocketed from there.
Another instance is when someone didn't like the amount of casting flash left on a Kapex.

In both instances, I think if a Festool technical service rep/engineer, had addressed the issue it may have suddenly become a non-issue.

For instance, in the first example a simple explanation saying "This is the manufacturing method we've historically used in all of our saws and the MTBF data we've compiled for bushing failure is XXXX hours."

In the second example it could have been "The amount of casting flash left on a Kapex is not an arbitrary amount but rather a set limit that was derived from extensive cost evaluation studies, and it was determined at the time, that the removal of all of the casting flash would result in a price increase of XX% to the Kapex. Thus, we decided that this was a proper compromise between aesthetics and functionality."

Most of the bickering starts on technical issues and there is no one source on the forum to go for "the last word". That last word should be from a Festool technical/engineering person and that would mitigate many of the fires.

 

[charley1968]

Take a step back. I mean, this is a tool forum, for chrissakes. If there's some troll who thinks BlacknDecker is da shit: Fine.
Opinions are like assholes: everyone has one or two, just don't get worked up about them. Enjoy the tools when they're doing their job, complain if they don't. But be prepared to question yourself and be questioned. Are we a kindergarten that we need threads like this one?

 

[jacko9]

I've been around here for a few years and I can't say that I've been distracted by people that offer counter opinions to a favorite tool or even those that suggest that a different brand other than Festool might be superior.  Suggestions that another quality brand tool might have some superior features should be discussed and Festool should be paying attention to these discussions (at least the ones that are valid) and give feedback to the designers in Germany.  For the past 8 years most of my new tool purchases have been Festool with the one recent exception being the purchase of the Mafell MT55cc plunge saw.  I was able to find comments comparing two different brands to see what saw best fit "my shop" and "my needs".  I feel like this value of discourse will be lost in any heavy handed outing of people that "once in a while" disagree with the Festool offerings.

Just my 2 cents!

Jack

 

[Brice Burrell]

......As I said I have no idea what this person's agenda and purpose for joining the FOG is but it certainly isn't to share information and feedback in a genuine, open and truthful manner..... 

I personally would be appalled if someone joined the FOG and purposefully mislead members with false feedback.  This site is about the open sharing of genuine experience and information.  If we lose that, well, what are we left with?

There is no question that this is a Festool enthusiast site.  I think we all can agree that not everyone needs to share the same level of enthusiasm for the brand.  Still, it is the common theme that binds us together.  If that gets destroyed by a few people purposefully trolling or even members with a bad attitude, we all lose.  I think constructive criticism towards the tools and brand is good, again, I think that is something we all agree on.  Trolling and bad attitudes towards the brand are disruptive to the forum, and I wouldn't mind if the staff and mods would be harder on disruptive members.       

 

[TylerC]

Dissent, disagreement and criticism are great and perfectly acceptable. I think the original note was not about criticism but about so-called trolling. Of course, the problem is that the difference between a critic and a troll can be subjective. We don't want to shut down legitimate criticism and discussion. However, if people seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing, making personal attacks or (as @Woodn't It Be Neat claimed earlier) misrepresenting their actual experiences/opinions, that's not productive. The problem is that it's hard to know someone's motives.

 

[Brice Burrell]

Dissent, disagreement and criticism are great and perfectly acceptable. I think the original note was not about criticism but about so-called trolling. Of course, the problem is that the difference between a critic and a troll can be subjective. We don't want to shut down legitimate criticism and discussion....

You can't shout fire in a crowded theater, or in a Festool enthusiast site... 

....The problem is that it's hard to know someone's motives.

Let's forget motives and look at the results.  If someone is in the middle of disruptive discussion more than once in a while, they are a problem.  Again, I wouldn't mind if problem members were dealt with more aggressively.