How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?

[patriot]

I've been feeling guilty for highjacking the 'Attention HAMMER K3 WINNER owners!!' thread so thought it best to begin my own thread on the issues I have had thus far in trying to purchase the K3 table saw.

To recap: I contacted a Felder/Hammer rep - David Brooks, whose email address was posted in the aforementioned thread. This past Monday (6MAR17) he contacted me and together with Jesse Maynerich (Senior Sales Representative at the New Castle, DE Felder Group) they provided links to videos and were answering every question I had. When I asked Mr. Brooks what s/h would be for the K3 he asked for my address.  When he realized that I lived in New Mexico he said that I lived in the CA district and he would have to have a CA rep take over.  He said he would provide the CA rep with all of my questions and he would soon call me.  The call the from the CA rep (I am not naming him intentionally because I have an email in to Mr. Maynerich and will let him deal with this rep) came through in short order and we had a nice chat.  I apologized for needing all the info and the CA rep said no problem as he understood it was a pricey machine and he would be happy to answer all of my questions as soon as he could.  Just to be clear this was 6 Mar 17.

By 9 Mar - this past Thursday, I had not heard back from the CA rep. So I contacted the Dallas Felder office via their Contact page.  Then as if by magic I suddenly hear back from the CA rep whose email began with 'Thank you for your time on the phone today.'  Today?  This was followed by '... and let me know if you have any questions.'  Then he had the balls to attach a contract for me to sign. Smoke was coming out of my ears by this time which was making Bella (our border collie) bark at me.

I will not try to figure out what this person's problem is but I will say this: I was very serious about wanting to purchase the K3 and now the N4400 as well, but this sale went south once Mr. Brooks handed me off to Mr. CA Representative.

As noted above I am in the process of composing a letter to Mr. Maynerich and will send it off tomorrow.  My original missive was worded a bit too 'harshly' and decided to wait a day or two to simmer down.  My wife is very good a making me simmer down: "Either you chill out or you'll be sharing Bella's bowl! So which is it?"  Yes, mam.

Going slightly off topic ...

Why do I want the K3?  There must be some reason I am enduring all of this pain, right? 

I want the K3 for a lot of reasons, but IMHO what really separates the K3 from the rest of the consumer table saws is its ability to use 12-inch blades.  The K3 would actually make my shop bigger because I could sell my current Craftsman TS AND my Craftsman 12-inch radial arm saw.  I love my RA because it will cut 4-inch stock while my TS will only slice 3-1/8" stock (as I recall) if not using one of my sleds.  However, when the RA's 220V motor rev's up you'd better be on full alert because IMHO this machine is the most dangerous power tool in my shop.  I know my RA backwards and forwards - I've had it since the early 70's, and it has served me very well, but a TS with a 12-inch blade would be preferable to owning my RA and my TS.

One could argue that all you have to do to slice 4-inch stock on a 10-inch TS is to flip the stock 180 degrees.  I can't argue that, but unless your stock is perfectly symmetrical and is being pushed through the blade via a perfectly perpendicular sled or miter gauge then you may end up with a not-so-perfect 4-inch slice.  This is just how I see my woodworking world and not everyone will agree.  I get that.  I go to great lengths to insure that all of my gear is as perfectly aligned as is humanly possible.  Again I can hear my lovely wife telling dinner guests how I "engineer my woodworking projects."  I have to admit she is correct. I have no excuses. Yes, mam.

Why not purchase a SawStop?  Ah, another great question.  From all of my research and from someone who has used one for several months, the problems are as follows: 

• Problem #1. The simple act of changing blades can prevent the machine from running because the sensor must to be a predetermined distance from the blade.  If the new blade is not a perfect match you have to adjust the sensor to get it to work.  I really do not want a TS that I have to fiddle with everytime I change blades.
• Problem #2 is that you need a complete new sensor for dadoing. 
• Problem #3 the fact that this machine is just waiting to save my fingers by imploding its blade into the aluminum block would drive me nuts.

While this technology may be just the ticket for those who are prone to sticking their finger's where they do not belong, it just makes me very uncomfortable.  I can see all of the hammer's being thrown at me.  I get all the safety stuff and I know that 'accidents happen', but I would very much prefer a TS that started up regardless of what blade I needed for the job at hand.  But, and we all know there is a 'but ...', I may end up with one if I am not sucessful at purchasing the K3. 

All of this drama will play itself out in the next week or so.  Until then, thanks for hearing me out.

 

[Kev]

I feel your pain brother and I'm hoping my recent move won't put me in a similar position. Until recently I was living in NSW (in Oz) and have just moved to Queensland. All of my quizzing and visits have been to the Felder NSW Australian HO and showroom, but now that I'm nearing the point where I'll have a decent size workshop, I'll need to procure my gear through the Queensland branch [unsure]

Don't compromise on the gear you want .. a 12" sliding table saw is a completely different animal to a 10" cabinet saw and having a slider that lets you bench you RAS is a much greater safety LEAP than a 10" cabinet sausage saver saw [wink] that effectively means you need to continue using the RAS for the big timber.

Felder is a decent company, but they may be using a sub agent in your area. Escalate you issues calmly and stay focused on the gear you want ..  the initial pain will be forgotten when you have everything setup in your workshop, working perfectly ... try budgeting for at least 5 stupid phone calls and 5 stupid emails and you just may come in under budget [big grin]

Good luck.

Kev.

 

[suds]

Initially, I had that problem but ended up conversing with Liz from the CA office.  She's great at getting back and I've spoken with her a number of times on the phone.  I was looking at the A3-26 or 31 but never did pull the trigger.
Regarding the SawStop, I have the PCS and absolutely love it.  I have the extra cartridge for the Dado set up and find switching between the two takes me less than 1 minute.  And I'm a clutz.  Adjusting the sensor is also done in seconds with the tools on the saw.
Not trying to talk you out of that beautiful saw but you might stop by and play with the SawStop if those objections are what's holding you from buying one. 

 

[stvrowe]

I've been feeling guilty for highjacking the 'Attention HAMMER K3 WINNER owners!!' thread so thought it best to begin my own thread on the issues I have had thus far in trying to purchase the K3 table saw.
...
By 9 Mar - this past Thursday, I had not heard back from the CA rep. So I contacted the Dallas Felder office via their Contact page.  Then as if by magic I suddenly hear back from the CA rep whose email began with 'Thank you for your time on the phone today.'  Today?  This was followed by '... and let me know if you have any questions.'  Then he had the balls to attach a contract for me to sign. Smoke was coming out of my ears by this time which was making Bella (our border collie) bark at me.

I will not try to figure out what this person's problem is but I will say this: I was very serious about wanting to purchase the K3 and now the N4400 as well, but this sale went south once Mr. Brooks handed me off to Mr. CA Representative.

As noted above I am in the process of composing a letter to Mr. Maynerich and will send it off tomorrow.  My original missive was worded a bit too 'harshly' and decided to wait a day or two to simmer down.  My wife is very good a making me simmer down: "Either you chill out or you'll be sharing Bella's bowl! So which is it?"  Yes, mam.
...
All of this drama will play itself out in the next week or so.  Until then, thanks for hearing me out.

Seriously, you state you are serious about a purchase, had your questions answered, and now you are 'offended' when presented with a contract.  Each and every time I have made a Felder purchase, the price and options were quoted on a contract form and I have always changed the configuration and options following discussions with the rep and looking at the cost of each option.  This is really necessary to avoid misunderstandings.  The machine is built to your individual specifications and the contract form is really the only practical way to do this.  These machines are not off the shelf and stored ready for immediate delivery to your shop.  If you are upset about response over a few days, one can only imagine the angst you will endure waiting the 3-4 month delivery time (remember the custom built to your specs part).  I have never been offended by presentation of a contract - after all, no one was forcing me to sign it and it is just the sales rep asking to close the deal. 

FWIW, I have dealt with Fergus Cooke in Sacramento and Carl Knapp in LA and both have gotten back to me within a week or less (sometimes they had to get answers to my questions from Austria). 
Steve

 

[patriot]

@ Steve Row

Sorry for the confusion, but I was inferring that not a single question that I originally asked was answered. I thought I mentioned that everything was going fine when working with Mr. Brooks and Mr. Maynerich.  It was when the CA rep took over that the flow of useful communication came to a halt.

Thanks for your post.

 

[morgan]

I believe Carl Knapp is the exclusive dealer for New Mexico.  Although I purchased an A3-41, I did so with many unanswered questions and in hindsight,  I didn't get what I wanted.  It wasn't for the sake of not asking the questions,  Carl simply ignored me and my questions.  When I couldn't get a hold of him,  I tried calling the Delaware office,  they were very kind but they insisted I speak to Carl.  Carl finally sent the quote and there were a couple things I wanted changed,  that never happened. I get random calls and emails from him still,  kinda like yours,  "thanks for your time in the phone today", or better yet,  "I was speaking to Mike and he told me you were wanting to upgrade your slider..." and I'm totally confused trying to figure out who Mike is because I don't have a sliding table saw.  The electrical system of my jointer failed with less than 2 hours of use on it.  The service department was very helpful in helping my diagnose the problems, I did have to get an electrician to diagnose the problems on the phone with felder although the offered to pay him,  he didn't charge me. It did take almost 3 weeks to receive the new electrical components and motor and putting it in wasn't the easiest thing to do.  Living in New Mexico as well, I discovered that they weren't willing to send a tech out and the only remedy that Felder offered was to send me the parts. As you would imagine,  your equipment never fails when you don't need it.  I was really bummed with myself for selling my 6" jointer and lunchbox planer,  I really could have used them at the moment.  Looking back,  I'm not sure it's worth it.  I would be more inclined to go with another manufacturer that offered better service.

 

[semenza]

I think that is interesting about the contract sale method. I am not sure in patriot's case but if I was sent a contract without prior knowledge of the sales method I would be at least wondering ..... 'what the heck is this all about?'

Seth

 

[rljatl]

I bought an A3-31 and received very good service from the Delaware office.  The first one they sent was damaged by the shipper and I rejected it. Hammer/Felder was very easy to deal with, kept me informed about what was going on, and followed up after I received my new machine to make sure I was happy. 

I believe they use contracts because these machines are pretty much made to order.  They do not stock them.  That's why you have to wait several weeks.  The more expensive commercial machines (Felder, Format4) cost tens of thousands of dollars.  Without a contract someone could change their mind after the machine has been built and is on its way from Austria or wherever it is made.  Then they would be stuck with an expensive machine that they have to store and find another buyer for.  I would guess that this not a big problem with the hobby level Hammer machines, but the same principle applies.

 

[patriot]

I believe Carl Knapp is the exclusive dealer for New Mexico.  Although I purchased an A3-41, I did so with many unanswered questions and in hindsight,  I didn't get what I wanted.  It wasn't for the sake of not asking the questions,  Carl simply ignored me and my questions.  When I couldn't get a hold of him,  I tried calling the Delaware office,  they were very kind but they insisted I speak to Carl.  Carl finally sent the quote and there were a couple things I wanted changed,  that never happened. I get random calls and emails from him still,  kinda like yours,  "thanks for your time in the phone today", or better yet,  "I was speaking to Mike and he told me you were wanting to upgrade your slider..." and I'm totally confused trying to figure out who Mike is because I don't have a sliding table saw.  The electrical system of my jointer failed with less than 2 hours of use on it.  The service department was very helpful in helping my diagnose the problems, I did have to get an electrician to diagnose the problems on the phone with felder although the offered to pay him,  he didn't charge me. It did take almost 3 weeks to receive the new electrical components and motor and putting it in wasn't the easiest thing to do.  Living in New Mexico as well, I discovered that they weren't willing to send a tech out and the only remedy that Felder offered was to send me the parts. As you would imagine,  your equipment never fails when you don't need it.  I was really bummed with myself for selling my 6" jointer and lunchbox planer,  I really could have used them at the moment.  Looking back,  I'm not sure it's worth it.  I would be more inclined to go with another manufacturer that offered better service.

Thanks for your post, Morgan.

I'm sitting here shaking my head at all of the drama that transpires when a guy is trying to spend a ton of money on a power tool and it just seems that most of the rep's you are required to deal with seem to be discouraging you every step of the way.  I don't get it.  Perhaps they do not work on commission? 

It's pointless trying to figure this out, but it is also very frustrating when you want to own the tool they are offering. It also makes me ponder the actual success of companies that have no idea of how to work in any meaningful way with consumer's upon whom they depend.  In my case, if the CA rep had answered all of my questions, I would probably have ordered the K3 or the N4400 by now. 

I suppose that like everything else in life we have to make compromises regardless of the path we take.  Case in point: Late last night I got an email from my website Contact form from some guy who had purchased an Inca 710 bandsaw like I currently own.  (How he connected the dots from the 710 to me is still a mystery.)  Anyway, the point being that when I purchased my 710 I had to wait nearly 9 months to receive it from Garrett-Wade back in the early 90's as I recall.  I remember thinking at the time that I truly had no idea what I was getting myself into by purchasing a 'foreign' bandsaw and having to wait several months to receive it.  One of the first questions that I was asked by this gentleman was how the bearings were doing?  Quite honestly, I had never pondered that question and have never had a single issue with the wheel-bearings or the tires.

Fortunately, my 710 has served me very well, but from what I have read that is not the norm.  It is far from perfect.  The roller-guide bearings are very poorly designed and dust collection is atrocious at best even with my Festool CT 36 hooked up to it.  So, the question is would I purchase this bandsaw again?  I think the honest answer would be yes, but that was then. 

Today, because of the experience I now have with the Inca, I think I would be better served by a N4400 style bandsaw.  I say this because nearly all of my woodworking stock comes from logs that I havested when we lived in Chicago and brought back to NM.  My Inca does not have the power to rough cut these oak and maple slabs.  It's cutting height is only 8-inches which is much too shallow to cut most of these slabs.  The bottom line would be that back when I purchased my Inca it was perfect for me.  Today, I really need the capabilities that a N4400 style bandsaw has to offer.

Lastly, your mention of Carl Knapp brought back memories of my original contact with Felder when I was interested in the N4400.  I had forgotten his name.  He kept after me to purchase the N4400, but really do not recall much else.  I do know that I was serious about the N4400 because I wired my shop with a 10ga/30A receptacle which I  believe the N4400 requires.  I could be wrong about this because I was considering the Laguna as well.

Take care.

 

[patriot]

I think that is interesting about the contract sale method. I am not sure in patriot's case but if I was sent a contract without prior knowledge of the sales method I would be at least wondering ..... 'what the heck is this all about?'

Seth

Thanks for your post.

When I was working with Mr. Brooks and Mr. Mayernich I was told that they had two K3's in the Delaware showroom.  I am assuming that is truly the case, but I may never know. [sad]

Take care.

 

[junk731]

Welcome to the world of higher end woodworking equipment. Most suppliers like Martin, Felder, SCM etc work from contracts especially when the machines are made to order. While most of the Hammer line is the entry level with fewer options to the Felder line, a lot of it is now stocked to cut down on wait times. It is typically offered  first even if it isn't exactly what you want, your choice shorter wait or 3 to 4 month delivery.

John

 

[morgan]

Something to take into consideration on these Hammer machines is that most of the motors are only rated for a 40% duty cycle. So in theory, you can run the machine for 24 minutes straight then it needs a 36 minute break.

 

[patriot]

Welcome to the world of higher end woodworking equipment. Most suppliers like Martin, Felder, SCM etc work from contracts especially when the machines are made to order. While most of the Hammer line is the entry level with fewer options to the Felder line, a lot of it is now stocked to cut down on wait times. It is typically offered  first even if it isn't exactly what you want, your choice shorter wait or 3 to 4 month delivery.

John

Did I hear a chuckle at the end of that first sentence? [big grin]

Yeah, I hear you on the contract requirement.  I have no problem with that at all.  I will admit that this is new to me, but I understand why they do that and also why they want 20% up front.  I'd probably do likewise if I were them.  If a guy backs out that 20% will probably end up be the 'restocking fee'. [scared]

Thanks for your post.

 

[patriot]

Initially, I had that problem but ended up conversing with Liz from the CA office.  She's great at getting back and I've spoken with her a number of times on the phone.  I was looking at the A3-26 or 31 but never did pull the trigger.
Regarding the SawStop, I have the PCS and absolutely love it.  I have the extra cartridge for the Dado set up and find switching between the two takes me less than 1 minute.  And I'm a clutz.  Adjusting the sensor is also done in seconds with the tools on the saw.
Not trying to talk you out of that beautiful saw but you might stop by and play with the SawStop if those objections are what's holding you from buying one.

Suds, thanks for your post.  Very informative ... and also just a bit biased. [big grin]  I'm kidding, of course, but I get what you are saying.

I have looked at the SS for several years, but something just prevents me from ordering one.  I think I know what that is and I will probably get in trouble for saying so.  In so many words, I feel that this machine is like Big Brother looking out for me.  That may sound totally ridiculous, but that's how I feel about it.  If someone is dumb enough to 'accidentally' have a workshop tool cut him then he has no one to blame but himself.  IMO, and speaking from experience, every time I have cut myself in my shop it was because I was doing something stupid.  Stupid has consequences.

Case in point: Years ago I was rushing to slice a tall oak board about 6-inches or so on my bandsaw.  I knew the blade was dull but was in too big a hurry to change it. (AKA being lazy!) My habit is to use 'dull' Wood Slicer's for slicing stock no taller than 2-inches.  For anything over that I switch to blades that are considered 'sharp'.  ( I attach large cards to each of my bandsaw blades to keep a log of their use and relative sharpness.)  Anyway, I was pushing this stock through the blade and was nearly finished when suddenly the stock exploded along the kerf.  This 'explosion' was due to tension in the board and the kerf was just sufficiently long enough for the tension to rip open the board.  Needless to say, this was the last thing I was expecting to happen and in an instance my hand slammed right into the blade.  The good Lord must have been looking out for me that day because as bad as the 'kerf' in my finger looked the scar is barely visible today. 

Looking back on that experience I'm fairly certain that if I had swapped in a sharp blade the accident would not have happened because I would not have been pushing as hard as I was to make the cut with a dull blade. So again, stupid has consequences.  Lesson learned and well deserved.

So, all of this said, if I end up with the PCS I will probably be a happy camper and you can rightfully snicker at me, but I'm not at that point yet.  If it came in a 12' blade model I would probably already own one.  I've read rumors about this coming soon, but have no idea if this is true or not.  One thing I do like is their shipping charge - $250!  No questions asked. 

You can quit twisting my arm now. [smile]

Take care.

 

[Picktool]

[member=49475]patriot[/member]

If you should happen to do the Hammer K3 & N4400 & whatever other machine
ship them all at once and save $$ on the shipping.

I paid extra shipping for the FAT300, #1 because I wanted it now or #2
wait 2 more months. Shipping for that wasnt fun either.
Other than that, service was great and even if I havent purchased anything
lately I still get an email here/there if I may need something or what sale is on.
The wait sucks but at least you have time to reconfigure your setup if need be.

 

[patriot]

I feel your pain brother and I'm hoping my recent move won't put me in a similar position. Until recently I was living in NSW (in Oz) and have just moved to Queensland. All of my quizzing and visits have been to the Felder NSW Australian HO and showroom, but now that I'm nearing the point where I'll have a decent size workshop, I'll need to procure my gear through the Queensland branch [unsure]

Don't compromise on the gear you want .. a 12" sliding table saw is a completely different animal to a 10" cabinet saw and having a slider that lets you bench you RAS is a much greater safety LEAP than a 10" cabinet sausage saver saw [wink] that effectively means you need to continue using the RAS for the big timber.

Felder is a decent company, but they may be using a sub agent in your area. Escalate you issues calmly and stay focused on the gear you want ..  the initial pain will be forgotten when you have everything setup in your workshop, working perfectly ... try budgeting for at least 5 stupid phone calls and 5 stupid emails and you just may come in under budget [big grin]

Good luck.

Kev.

Hey kev!

Thanks for your awesome post.  Surely you're a full-time comedian. Yes?  [big grin].

If I may, I would love to quote your last line forever or until I pass whichever is the longest.  [cool]  You're way too funny for your own good.

Asking me to 'escalate my issues calmly' may be asking a bit too much of me, but I will try my best.  I will know more when I hear back from the Felder home office.  I'm assuming that I will hear back from them.

Regardless, yes, a TS with a 12-inch saw blade would really make my day and my shop will be safer and roomier for it.

Thanks again for a great post and I wish you the best with your Felder purchases.

Cheers!

 

[ben_r_]

Huh, I work about 15 minutes from the Sacramento Hammer/Felder sales office and bought my N4400 there and had nothing but great communication and service. Been saving for an A3-31 that Ill be picking up from there as well someday. That said I also deal with Liz Rogers in that office. Her email is: e.rogers@felderusa.com and her number is: 916-375-3190

 

[patriot]

Huh, I work about 15 minutes from the Sacramento Hammer/Felder sales office and bought my N4400 there and had nothing but great communication and service. Been saving for an A3-31 that Ill be picking up from there as well someday. That said I also deal with Liz Rogers in that office. Her email is: e.rogers@felderusa.com and her number is: 916-375-3190

ben_r, thanks for your post.

I wish I lived that close to a Hammer/Felder sales office.  This is twice that someone has mentioned Liz Rodgers.  Thanks for providing her email and phone number. 

Question for you:  What are the power requirements for the N4400?  20A or 30A breaker?  Or better yet, how many amps does the 1phase 220v motor pull?  Thanks.

 

[Scorpion]

Regarding your experience with the sales rep - I frequently need to remind myself to "assume positive intent".  Believe me, it's difficult at times but it really does work in your favor.

When you received the follow up consider the following - he had already typed up the follow-up email and never hit send.  I do it all the time at work.  Make me a bad person?  Nope, everyone gets busy, distracted by the boss...only to return to find your damn PC has been auto-restarted to apply a windows patch by the IT department.  He could have quickly hit send without proofreading out of embarrassment when he was reminded he never followed up?  Tried to send you a "contract" because he couldn't remember the true context of your previous engagement and figured it was for a quote and didn't want you to have to ask again because that might just make you more displeased.

I only share this angle because I believe I tend to more frequently fail to assume positive intent.  When I reflect I realize that, for the most part, the only thing I get out of those situations  is unhappiness which I occasionally then push onto someone else.  Rarely did it benefit anyone.  I can, on the other hand, remember dozens of times where I've been rewarded for being nice or friendly - a drink on the house, a discount when one wasn't actually available, a freebie here and there. 

I say give the dude a break, smile at him through the phone, and see what happens next.  If you do you might just be helping me out since there's a good chance I'm the next one he'll be talking to. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[junk731]

Something to take into consideration on these Hammer machines is that most of the motors are only rated for a 40% duty cycle. So in theory, you can run the machine for 24 minutes straight then it needs a 36 minute break.

Morgan just to clear up your statement, the motors S6 with a 40% rating. If you do your research you will find that an S6 motor is good for continuous run and full load operation for 40% of that runtime. This rating is quite common for many woodworking machines because of the way operations are carried out. Unless you are pushing that motor continuously at full load which rarely happens on a sliding tablesaw or any other shop machines the motors are the perfect match to machine use.

John