How much to charge for bar refinishing in NYC?

[KM]

Hey folks, today I was asked to give an estimate to refinish a bar in a restaurant in Manhattan, NY. I do not do this for a living and have no idea what the prevailing rates are. The details of the bar are as follows:

1. 2ft x 40ft of solid red oak in very good condition.
2. existing finish which needs to be stripped either by heat gun, paint stripper or sanding. I believe it's a long oil varnish which never properly cured because it's very soft and can be peeled right off after 4 years of being applied. This leads me to believe heat's the best way to go since I hate chemicals.

My plan would be to use my RO125 sanding from 120 up to P220 and Behlen's rock hard table varnish (3 coats) as the topcoat. Not sure if the owner wants a stain or not. My initial calculation would be approx. 12 hours of labor (just me, myself and I).

I need to have this estimate in by Monday July 28 since as of now the owner is going with his current "contractor" who is the type of guy that installed wall tile 2 months ago and never bothered to grout or even take out the spacers...but gosh darnit-he works for real cheap.

I would greatly appreciate any and all input you are willing to offer.

Ken

 

[jaegerhund]

Gummy soft varnish might be tough on the sanders so heat might be your best bet.  I can't offer you any advise on rate to charge but you might want to add a seal coat of some kind --- dewaxed shellac is a good choice to seal any crap in that could effect your final coats.. 

Behlens is beautiful stuff.

Justin

 

[Eli]

Somebody call Per

 

[dirtydeeds]

my tuppence

be careful going into competition with a cowboy who doesnt grout tiles, then says he can do bar finishing

it isnt really the cowboy thats the problem

its the owner

dont be fooled that he will accept crap work from you

remember his bar top is front of shop, so it must be good

he clearly doesnt give a monkeys that the tiling in the toilets (rest rooms) has no grout

anyway

im listening with english ears and giving an english response

this long oil based varnish sounds a bit like yacht varnish (spar varnish?) it never really quite goes off

it is MORE of a surface finish, it sits on the surface more than it is absorbed into the wood

so it will clog any sandpaper very quickly

personally i would go with a much coarser grit to start with maybe P60

to rip the bulk of the finish off

before going to the finishing grades

 

[Per Swenson]

Your Favorite Wise Acre present and accounted for.

2 million dollars.

I kid, I kid, but not much.

12 hours? not if you plan on doing it correctly.

Next question, this bar going to have the rummys about while you do this?

If the answer is yes better ask for 4 million.

40 foot of bar you should be able to remove the finish in two thirds of a day.

Then get your first coat of shellac on. You are going to want a good build of shellac,

good three coats mebbe 4, we use zinnser seal cote. Its a dewaxed shellac right out of the can.

sand it in between to 220. By now you should see any of the pits and holes that the shellac wont fill,

and its time for some neutral grain filler. This should get you close. Then shellac it again.

Let it dry. sand again to 220. 100% dust free. Never use a tack cloth.

I recommend the behlen varnish reducer, but if you are in a pinch, naptha on a lint free rag to wipe it.

Like the automotive fellas use prepsol.

3 is good, 4 is better that is both coats and days in between.

In other words at least (weather permitting) 24 solid hours between coats. sanding now to 320.

It is still gonna look like crap until you come back in a month and polish it out.

See Here.  13 th PDF down from the top

I hope this helps. Whats not going to help...I know ,,,,,is me telling you how long this takes to do a good job.

And when it comes to this...I refuse to put my New Jersey contractors hat on, if ya catch my drift.

You can also look at pitchas here

Per

Ok  better then a full week if your lucky and thats not counting the polish.

 

[dirtydeeds]

per

why are tack cloths a no no ?

does this requirement apply to shellac only

 

[Per Swenson]

DD,

People the world over have had success with tack cloths,

at least that is what the tack cloth people will tell you.

However, in most cases in chasing the perfect finish tack cloths will do more harm then good.

They are made with a non drying resin /varnish and no matter what it is non drying.

Why do you think they call it tacky? In variably some of this stuff gets left on your surface.

Come on we have all seen the CSI/forcenics crap on TV.  Well, there is transfer, and if you are working with varnish,

microscopic never dry varnish underneath your product just isn't going to work out.

As a side note to you W/B folks this is triply true in our case.

It is our opinion that all store bought tack cloths being good for finishing is a myth.

Unless of course you are spraying krylon ;D

Per

This is just our opinon folks, you of course are entitled to your own.

P.

 

[dirtydeeds]

per, the lamp hath lit in my head  :

 

[Steve Jones]

I get better results with a good quality damp shop-rag (I'm using mostly water based finishes)

 

[KM]

Hey guys, thanks a lot for your valuable input. The reason I posted this question in the first place was because I had a reluctance to do this job for 2 reasons:

1. the owner is more concerned about speed of completion/cost than about quality/result.
2. restaurant would remain open with all the "rummies" rumming about, which would greatly hinder the process.

It seems as the owner expects something like a one day/overnight job (enter the cowboy). I didn't see how it could be done in less than 3 days minimum and not be used as a bar. It seems like my thoughts were validated.

Maybe I should just pass on this job because I am afraid that if I do the bar the following could happen:

1. I will not be able to do it properly because the owner wants it yesterday. I don't like rushing and I will Not do a crap job just to have it "done". Anyway, like DD said "the owner won't accept crap in the front of shop"

2. I will grossly underestimate the hours and/or my labor wage. Heck, I don't even know what my hourly wage should be for this. 40-50+?

So my best bet is probably do some research and find out what the going rates are and what others would charge for a job like this. I am 100% confident that I could fabulous job on the bar, however I don't want to  risk doing a subpar job or spending double the hours I estimated.

Once again thank you Jaegerhund, DD and Per

Ken

 

[Steve Jones]

Ken,

My usual method for turning down a job that's possible but probably shouldn't be attempted is to price it so that if the customer does decide to take the offer I'm well compensated for my efforts, in a case like yours I'd also inflate the time requirements.

 

[dirtydeeds]

i know you are wary about this job. heres some other reasons

his lawyers ABSOLUTLY WILL chase your insurance if he looses his takings because you arnt finished

even if he is at fault

say he doesnt close his bar at the agreed time, or doesnt clear the decks. it happens all too often

you do need a mate on a job like this for running around and doing odd things

you cannot afford to run out of materials or have a tool breakdown (at least thats low risk with festool) on a shopfitting job, you cant buy or hire at 1 in the morning

they want you to take on high risk?  they get to pay very high cost

this guy wants cheap and has it in his head that it will take 12 hours

let the cowboy who put that timescale in his head take it

there is other work out there

dont buy high risk jobs from cheapskates

and dont undercut cowboys, they ride a bigger range to avoid unhappy customers

 

[minimal]

Here's my strategy for such things, as they happen in my business:

Tell him it's not possible to do a good job in those constraints, and that he should go with the "cowboy".

Also tell him that, after the cowboy's done, what it will cost in time and $ for you to fix it.

(From the estimates you give above, I'd say *double them*.)

Some clients aren't worth it, no matter what the pay involved.

 

[Per Swenson]

Here is the really important thing to consider when doing public finishes.

Don't really matter what the client say's.

It is those customers who look at your work every day that will make or break a reputation.

So, a couple a bucks now as compared to "Jeez this guy is good" for the next 10 years...you decide.

Per

 

[KM]

You guys Rock!!!

So I'm thinking in the $1400 ($40/hr x 35hrs) + materials ballpark?? Like I've said b4, I'm not a pro, I can only aspire to do the work the Swenson's can do on a bar! I know I will be cheaper than most real finishers, however I don't want to sell myself like some kind of junkie looking for a quick fix.

I think minimal has the strategy. give the estimate at $1600, wait for the owner to look at me like I'm nuts and then tell him that in 6 months when his bar needs to be refinished again it's gonna cost him $1800 to fix the mistakes done by cowboy.

Does this sound about right? or I am missing some points or still lowballing?

Ken

 

[dirtydeeds]

im sure some of the guys here like country and western as well    :

ne nah, ne nah......................

tyres squeel, doors slam

dd                                "oh bugger its the mdf cops again"  :

swat team                    "hut, hut, hut"

dd                                "this is a jcb .................  not a hut"

swat team leader        "stop digging immediatly"

dd                                "i like my jcb"

swat team leader          "raise the bucket, and step away from the excavator"

dd                                  "what for"
                                      " im digging a BIG hole for myself"

swat team                      "CLICK"

dd                                  "whats that"     

swat team leader            "son, thats the safety catch off 500 guns and 3 rocket launchers"

dd                                    "why the 3 rocket launchers"

swat team leader            "thats all we could get from home depot"

dd                                    "how can i be of service to you gentlemen    "

swat team leader            "stop talking about country and western, we arnt all cowboys"

 

[Scott W.]

Interesting topic

I just did one a month or so back for a friend. He had two bars and was able to close it off while I worked on it.

I'm guessing it took around 60 hours of labor (bar was 50 ft). over a period of 2 weeks to allow for dry time between coats.
This does not count final polish which will be coming up in the next week or so.

It is a big job to do it "right" and it can NOT be rushed or the results you want won't be there in the end.

Per is right, a lot of people will see it for a long time. I guess it depends on the bar as to weather the "right clients" you are looking for see it

I have already had three request for furniture and built in's from doing this job. (all of which I passed on because this is a hobby for me not an income source).

If they won't pay you to do it right, If you won't be proud to put your name on the results, walk away.
It will cost you in the end.

Scott W.

 

[rwdawson]

Ken,

I find the $200 estimate to correct the cowboy's mistakes a little troubling.  Not being a finisher and having minimal experience in this subject, I can't say what can go wrong with his work.  But, what bothers me is that $200 dollars covers time and material for an unknown problem which might be of the same scale as the original project.  You could really screw yourself.

It might be prudent to look at this as two jobs.  The first, which will require a new bid, will correct as yet unknown problems introduced by the cowboy.  The second will be the job, which you think might be $1400.

You asked what at first appeared to be a simple question.  It has resulted in one of the more informative threads on this forum.  Thanks for that contribution.  And, thanks to the others for the great answers.

Richard

 

[danrush]

Run away, run away now!!!  OK, I'm finished being cute.

But I have learned to trust my gut, and although only you know the customer, it sounds as if the butterflies are all a flutter in your tummy right now too.  I've been in this game for a while also.  Not finishing like Per, but installing casework and such in open working businesses. A couple of thoughts if I may...

REALLY do take the hours you estimate the job to take and add half or better yet DOUBLE them.  I'm not being flip here.  You need to take into account for: set up and tear down each work shift.  nosey customers (as noted above)  Additional tarping or protection to keep folks out and off your work. Odd work hours.  What are the odds of getting tagged by a union or city inspector?  What happens if the unthinkable happens and the job/ bar ARE shut down?  Insurance? 

I'm not in New York, but in Chicago (NY must be more expensive than here)  Your pricing sounds too low.

Try to remember, you aren't really competing against the cowboy, but other top notch outfits like Per, etc. 

Just a couple of thoughts, Dan

 

[jaegerhund]

After working in a bar for a while, I think you should add more for having to tolerate the rummies --- (this ain't gonna be no at home listening to sounds of the humpback whale, sipping tee experience  ).    Your figures look a little low for me (what do I know) --- at least your hours might be on the slight ---- and if your charges look a little low for a Louisiana boy, well that's a tattletale for something (t'is a slight storm on the horizon).

Later,

Justin