How much to charge for bar refinishing in NYC?
- Thread starter KM
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Steve Jones
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last two comments are very astute, I do custom work all the time and my one downfall is constantly failing to allow enough time in my estimates, these things always take longer than you expect or they should.
The trick is to charge enough so you can do the customer an excellent job, better to not do it at all than to run out of time and or money, that way leads to disappointing yourself and the customer.
The trick is to charge enough so you can do the customer an excellent job, better to not do it at all than to run out of time and or money, that way leads to disappointing yourself and the customer.
dirtydeeds
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steve
im sort of in the same boat as you
boy is custom / bespoke work difficult to judge
with a quote that essentially tells them that it will take 5 hours just to strip the outside face of a six panel door to the bone
BEFORE you apply varnish coat one. its a shock
dd
ps............ i never tell them in a quote how long any one single operation takes or how long the whole job will take
they only get to know the total possible duration after they have accepted and ONLY if they ask
a quote is a quote (you take the risk)
an estimate is an estimate and (and ultimatly you, as well)
end take the risk........................ an estimate that goes BADLY over budget tends to fall at your door
im sort of in the same boat as you
boy is custom / bespoke work difficult to judge
with a quote that essentially tells them that it will take 5 hours just to strip the outside face of a six panel door to the bone
BEFORE you apply varnish coat one. its a shock
dd
ps............ i never tell them in a quote how long any one single operation takes or how long the whole job will take
they only get to know the total possible duration after they have accepted and ONLY if they ask
a quote is a quote (you take the risk)
an estimate is an estimate and (and ultimatly you, as well)
end take the risk........................ an estimate that goes BADLY over budget tends to fall at your door
Understimating the amount of time a project will take is a common mistake of anyone embarking on a project for the first time. In my field (science) I let the students estimate how long they think their experiment (or whatever) will take, and then multiply that estimate by about 5 to get the real time. It's quite proven quite accurate over the years, and I think that it probably applies in this situation. So if you take the original guess (12 hours) and multiply by 5 (60 hours) you get pretty close to the other estimates by more experienced people.
I've also found that estimating your costs and then multiplying by at least 2 will not leave you with much play money at the end of it all. There are a lot of hidden costs that will add up.
People also have a natural tendency to assume that if you charge a lot, you must be good. So don't underbid. If you overbid and they reject it, you may have dodged a bullet. If they accept it, you might make a decent wage.
I've also found that estimating your costs and then multiplying by at least 2 will not leave you with much play money at the end of it all. There are a lot of hidden costs that will add up.
People also have a natural tendency to assume that if you charge a lot, you must be good. So don't underbid. If you overbid and they reject it, you may have dodged a bullet. If they accept it, you might make a decent wage.
Decision made.....
After receiving everyone's extremely valuable input, I have decided not to bid on this project right now based upon the following facts:
1.Owner expectations of time, cost and resulting finish can not realistically be met.
2."Cowboy Contractor" is willing to do it for an insanely low price and most likely an insanely low quality end result...time will tell.
3. I do not want my name on something that looks like crap or starts falling apart simply because I rushed it and cut corners. I frequent this place on occasion and would be forced to see my mistake over and over again, not to mention comments from others like "hey ken, why is the bar peeling like that?"
4. Final and most importantly. I learned long ago that I should always trust my gut, my gut says "NO GO". Way too much risk for the possible reward. Thank you Dan for reminding me of that.
I will speak to the owner today and inform him that this project can not be completed by me at this time, due to prior commitments. I will let cowboy do it and in 6 months from now if the bar needs refinishing I will be able to give a much better informed estimate on the time and cost (and have more leverage). I have a feeling that after 6 months pass, the owner will have a different viewpoint and expectations.
In the meantime I will continue to practice my woodworking skills on completing a built-in desk using my growing Festool arsenal. As I've said before, this is more of a hobby for me and is suppose to be enjoyable even if there are times when it's challenging.
Thank you all so much for the input...
Ken
After receiving everyone's extremely valuable input, I have decided not to bid on this project right now based upon the following facts:
1.Owner expectations of time, cost and resulting finish can not realistically be met.
2."Cowboy Contractor" is willing to do it for an insanely low price and most likely an insanely low quality end result...time will tell.
3. I do not want my name on something that looks like crap or starts falling apart simply because I rushed it and cut corners. I frequent this place on occasion and would be forced to see my mistake over and over again, not to mention comments from others like "hey ken, why is the bar peeling like that?"
4. Final and most importantly. I learned long ago that I should always trust my gut, my gut says "NO GO". Way too much risk for the possible reward. Thank you Dan for reminding me of that.
I will speak to the owner today and inform him that this project can not be completed by me at this time, due to prior commitments. I will let cowboy do it and in 6 months from now if the bar needs refinishing I will be able to give a much better informed estimate on the time and cost (and have more leverage). I have a feeling that after 6 months pass, the owner will have a different viewpoint and expectations.
In the meantime I will continue to practice my woodworking skills on completing a built-in desk using my growing Festool arsenal. As I've said before, this is more of a hobby for me and is suppose to be enjoyable even if there are times when it's challenging.
Thank you all so much for the input...
Ken
jaegerhund
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I'm happy you came to a quick decision Ken, and one you feel happy with. The gut is a powerful indicator --- you are wise to heed its warnings. I think if the owner doesn't mind his present contractor, then he wouldn't understand your price, time, etc.
As the great philosopher Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull once said " nothing's easy" and any one who leads you to believe otherwise is suspect
.
Justin
As the great philosopher Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull once said " nothing's easy" and any one who leads you to believe otherwise is suspect
.Justin
dirtydeeds
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ken
you have come to the desison by yourself with reasoned argument, that is important
ok, so you needed a little help to come to it. so what
you clearly had a feeling that something wasnt quite right, and you had the guts and foresight to ask
that is a man talking
i too have learned some stuff from our esteemed collegues, Per and Bob Swenson
my remaining tack cloths just got binned
dd
you have come to the desison by yourself with reasoned argument, that is important
ok, so you needed a little help to come to it. so what
you clearly had a feeling that something wasnt quite right, and you had the guts and foresight to ask
that is a man talking
i too have learned some stuff from our esteemed collegues, Per and Bob Swenson
my remaining tack cloths just got binned
dd
Ken,
Now you can complete your desk and have some fun. Congrats!
Many years ago I was in a similar situation and talked to my pops about it. He wasn't in the trades, but business is business and he's a pretty bright guy.
Like you, I had to come up with a quick quote, not much experience with some parts of the job etc. His advise after I decided to pass was this:
" now that the pressure is off, study, really study the job and all possible pitfalls, losses, and profits. Put together a private quote and be ready the next time a job like this comes up ahead"
Advise that I'm glad to say has helped me more often than not.
Dan
Now you can complete your desk and have some fun. Congrats!
Many years ago I was in a similar situation and talked to my pops about it. He wasn't in the trades, but business is business and he's a pretty bright guy.
Like you, I had to come up with a quick quote, not much experience with some parts of the job etc. His advise after I decided to pass was this:
" now that the pressure is off, study, really study the job and all possible pitfalls, losses, and profits. Put together a private quote and be ready the next time a job like this comes up ahead"
Advise that I'm glad to say has helped me more often than not.
Dan
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Ken, If you change your mind or if he calls you in the future you have two options.
Option #1 Strip the bar sand and seal, then put on a coat of Behlens
The bar can be used the next day. Come in the next night wash the bar making sure
that you remove coke or any sugar like soda. Sand with 220 and varnish again.
Make sure the place is warm. I don't think the diners would put up with the smell if you did
it in the day time. Do it every night until you are happy, then polish it.
Option # 2 You can finish it with epoxy in one day.
If you look at the pictures that Per posted you will see me chasing bubbles
in the epoxy with a heat gun. The elk that I carved is set 5/8?"in to the bar so
to bring the level up to the top it was necessary to continue the pore over the entire bar
This was our first time using this method. You can leave it as is but if the sun is going
to hit it you need to over coat with varnish. I added three coats of Behlens on the epoxy and then
polished the bar..
Option #1 is your best bet. Charge a mint.
Bob (Per's coach)
Keep us posted
Option #1 Strip the bar sand and seal, then put on a coat of Behlens
The bar can be used the next day. Come in the next night wash the bar making sure
that you remove coke or any sugar like soda. Sand with 220 and varnish again.
Make sure the place is warm. I don't think the diners would put up with the smell if you did
it in the day time. Do it every night until you are happy, then polish it.
Option # 2 You can finish it with epoxy in one day.
If you look at the pictures that Per posted you will see me chasing bubbles
in the epoxy with a heat gun. The elk that I carved is set 5/8?"in to the bar so
to bring the level up to the top it was necessary to continue the pore over the entire bar
This was our first time using this method. You can leave it as is but if the sun is going
to hit it you need to over coat with varnish. I added three coats of Behlens on the epoxy and then
polished the bar..
Option #1 is your best bet. Charge a mint.
Bob (Per's coach)
Keep us posted
Well, well , well. Looks like we got ourselves a little finishing showdown.......
Tack cloths at twenty paces gentlemen.
Do a review Per! I'll wager an FS-KS systainer insert (wiped out with a dry cloth) that you reverse your position. JLyman has an air of confidence about him.
Mr. Lyman, would you provide the ammunition?
Tack cloths at twenty paces gentlemen.
Do a review Per! I'll wager an FS-KS systainer insert (wiped out with a dry cloth) that you reverse your position. JLyman has an air of confidence about him.
Mr. Lyman, would you provide the ammunition?
dirtydeeds
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ive a horrible feeling there are going to be lots of very poor jokes before too long
Per Swenson
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Mr Lyman,
I apologize for my shot gun approach in disparaging tack cloths.
I should know better.
Although wood finishing is a different medium then automotive, as the surface is initially porous
and is prone to collecting contaminate. Your Crystal cloth looks promising.
Consider this a correction.
Per
I apologize for my shot gun approach in disparaging tack cloths.
I should know better.
Although wood finishing is a different medium then automotive, as the surface is initially porous
and is prone to collecting contaminate. Your Crystal cloth looks promising.
Consider this a correction.
Per
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Welcome to the FOG jlyman'
Thanks for putting that young whipper snapper in his place.
Bob ;D
Thanks for putting that young whipper snapper in his place.
Bob ;D
Michael Kellough
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Bob Swenson said:
From me too, I'm sure I'll learn something interesting at your site but I've already gathered a couple of smiles at some of the terms I noticed. Just the title of a thread, "Tack cloth technology" is funny, although I can't think of a more rational way to title that thread. And the idea of getting my tack clothes "serviced" is funny too.
I spoke with the owner yesterday and gave him an estimate of $3000, doubtful that he will bite. Saw the cowboy come in with his posse to do some painting. Cowboy had his interpreter (he speaks Chinese) talk with the owner on what I assume was the bar.
My bet is that he'll go w/ cowboy who will do it with either minwax poly or spar varnish. Either way, 6 months from now it'll be destroyed.
Interesting note which I forgot to mention before, I was asked what type of finish I would put on by owner. I just said "there are several types of commercial grade finishes available, I can't decide until I get down to the wood". Hey, I'm not the brightest guy in the world but I'm smart enough not to give him my whole finishing/materials schedule! Besides, cowboy doesn't have the time to spend sanding/polishing it with his dewalt 5" sander...shoulda gotta Festool!
Again, I am deeply grateful for all the invaluable input. I am especially honored to have the great Bob Swenson offer his advice!
Ken
My bet is that he'll go w/ cowboy who will do it with either minwax poly or spar varnish. Either way, 6 months from now it'll be destroyed.
Interesting note which I forgot to mention before, I was asked what type of finish I would put on by owner. I just said "there are several types of commercial grade finishes available, I can't decide until I get down to the wood". Hey, I'm not the brightest guy in the world but I'm smart enough not to give him my whole finishing/materials schedule! Besides, cowboy doesn't have the time to spend sanding/polishing it with his dewalt 5" sander...shoulda gotta Festool!
Again, I am deeply grateful for all the invaluable input. I am especially honored to have the great Bob Swenson offer his advice!
Ken
- Joined
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Gee Ken, Thanks
Bob
Bob
I started a new thread for you JLyman. Post there. No worries about clutter. Please share some specifics about cloth formulation for wood finishing/refinishing (although we have other trades around)
http://festoolownersgroup.com/index.php?topic=4721.0
http://festoolownersgroup.com/index.php?topic=4721.0
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