How square is square and how much is the difference's worth?

Flair Woodworks said:
The difference between a Starrett and Empire square is the same as a Lie Nielsen and Groz plane. 
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Interesting analogy. But is it a valid one?

What I gather from the many opinions expressed is that we all ASSUME that the higher-priced square is significantly more accurate than its cheaper counterpart. However, we can't be certain because measuring the difference (assuming there is one) is beyond the means of us all. So, we are at square one (pun intended).

Is there a big enough difference that the wide gap in price is justified?

And, please, do not think I'm trying to prove one point or the other. I just ordered the new Woodpecker featherboards, even though I know fully well that they will not do anything that a decent pair of featherboards in the right hands can't do. It so happens that I found them interesting and had the money to indulge myself. In other words, I don't mind playing the occasional sucker role - that's part of being a hobbyst. My agenda is one of pure curiosity and nothing else: are we blindly going by price or are we rightfully justified in paying a lot extra for the (supposed) "extraordinary precision"?
 
IMHO, is all boils down to sensory perception. Most of don't realize that we can feel much more than we can see. There is no way we can mark and cut accurately enough that we won't feel the resulting variation. Hence, the smoothing plane or the ROS to compensate for what we just cannot do with a pencil and a saw, or a square.

Put another way, we can have the most accurate 3 inch square in the world and it is only good to a distance of, what?, 3 inches! Once we start projecting beyond the actual length of our tools we enter a world of uncertainty that can only be dealt with through alternative means. I'll label it 'fairing' for now, but what I am referring to is really the art or craftsmanship of good work that can only be achieved by knowing what your marking tools can do and what they cannot do, namely, help you make an object both pleasing to the eye and pleasing to the touch.
 
I'll agree that price is not always a good indicator of quality.  Those plastic drafting triangles are extremely accurate, but much cheaper than woodworking squares.
 
irvin00 said:
Flair Woodworks said:
The difference between a Starrett and Empire square is the same as a Lie Nielsen and Groz plane. 
Click to expand...

Interesting analogy. But is it a valid one?

What I gather from the many opinions expressed is that we all ASSUME that the higher-priced square is significantly more accurate than its cheaper counterpart. However, we can't be certain because measuring the difference (assuming there is one) is beyond the means of us all. So, we are at square one (pun intended).

Is there a big enough difference that the wide gap in price is justified?

And, please, do not think I'm trying to prove one point or the other. I just ordered the new Woodpecker featherboards, even though I know fully well that they will not do anything that a decent pair of featherboards in the right hands can't do. It so happens that I found them interesting and had the money to indulge myself. In other words, I don't mind playing the occasional sucker role - that's part of being a hobbyst. My agenda is one of pure curiosity and nothing else: are we blindly going by price or are we rightfully justified in paying a lot extra for the (supposed) "extraordinary precision"?
Click to expand...

I don't really think a general answer can be applied as to wether or not the expensive square is more accurate than a cheaper one. That is going to depend on the individual square. But I would be willing to bet that if a company 'A' is claiming a guaranteed accuracy tolerance and company 'B' is not that you are more likely to get an accurate one from company 'A'. Of course  that doesn't mean that a given company 'B' square might not be just as good.

As far as being able to see / measure the differance,..... I have used /  checked plenty of inexpensive squares where the "out of squareness" is perfectly visible.  If the accuracy is at the point that a difference can not be seen or felt, in the woodworking envirement between two squares, then both are probably more than accurate enough for the job.

Price alone is not a guarantee, it is the actual product and what is behind the price that matters.

Seth
 
Flair Woodworks said:
The difference between a Starrett and Empire square is the same as a Lie Nielsen and Groz plane.  Or at least comparable.  Yes, the Starrett (and Lie Nielsen) comes accurate and ready to use, but the Empire (or Groz can be tuned to work well too.  By filing the shoulder that the square's blade (ruler) rests against, you can change the angle and make it as accurate as you like.  The other differences you will find are the fit and finish - crisper machining, easier-to-read incraments, etc.  Oh, and I believe the stock of a combination square can be either cast or forged.
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I agree completely. Of course sometimes you pay more just for a name with a good reputation, but that reputation is often well earned.

Regarding the Starrett and Empire combination squares, like a lot of folks I have both. The 12" empire cost me $12.00 and the Starrett cost me $90.00. The Starrett is what I use myself, and the Empire is for lending to others.  [big grin]

I checked them both when new, and as far as I could tell, they were equally accurate. But the comparison ends there, the Starrett is heavier and made from an obviously better steel, the machining is far superior, even the set screw and spring are better. And not only is the machining of the blade superior, the graduations are permanently etched on, while the Empire's look to be painted. The quality of these tools is not just about how they perform when new, but how long they will perform that way.

417825CNFYL._SL500_AA300_PIbundle-999,TopRight,0,0_AA300_SH20_.jpg
 
31ERTERCS9L._SL500_AA300_.jpg


Is the Starrett worth 9 times the price? Maybe not, but I have no doubt that if anything ever happens to my Starrett I won't be replacing it with an Empire.  [smile]
 
So, the question is how square is square. Is there such a thing as a PERFECT square?

I don't know, but several years ago I bought a square from Edward J. Bennett that is as close as I've seen. It is made from a single piece of solid, hardened tool steel that's 1/4" thick. All edges are ground and lapped to meet accuracy Class 2 specifications (0.0008" + 0.0001" per inch of length). It will stand up or lay flat on the table. I have never used this square for my work, it stays protected in its box, and comes out only to check the accuracy of all other tools. I have found that many of the cheaper tools are so far off they are worthless, and in my opinion, the real ripoff. I've also found that although many tools in all price ranges are accurate when new, it is the better made tools that tend to stay that way.

No matter what tools you buy, it's nice to have one accurate and dependable tool to periodically check them against.

squares.jpg
 
Square-Master.JPG


 
I guess it comes back to the saying we have all heard a million times the right tools for the right job. I worked in NA and Europe helping power generation and oil refineries become more reliable.

Too many times I would see disconnects in what was being done and then another old saying came to mind "measure it with a micrometer, mark it  in caulk and cut it with an axe".  

Cheers,
Steve
 
Steve R said:
Not if you wipe it off before you start to cut..... [eek]
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Steve, I think you've offered good evidence that your choice in a square makes absolutely no difference at all.  [big grin]
 
I like to feel confident that when I use a square that it is actually square so in my mind quality is worth the extra money.  I have no use for and will not use a square that is not accurate, even for rough framing.  I paid $43.00 for a 6" Craftsman combination square in 1986.  It performed its duty flawlessly until 2010 when it was dropped about 6" onto a concrete floor which broke the set screw.  Since they no longer have this model(or parts) I now  have a very nice hardened stainless steel 6" ruler, and a new 6" starrett combination square.
  Its probably way more accurate than I really need but one thing for sure, I don't have to give it a  second thought, hence, peace of mind.
 
One thing I notices when I moved to Festool tools... I had one of those  [doh] moments... the Festools could cut more accurate and my old tools and I noticed they were more accurate than my old measure tools.. [eek]  a good  [eek].

Never before did I consider my measuring tools and marking tools as Gross...  with Festool it was an eye opener...I did move to more precise measures and marking. I use a scribe to make my line on product that won't show. or the right sized pencil.. .5mm  up to a 1.1mm (my favorite as it doesn't break as much) and then a carpenters pencil for other things... like demo...LOL

With my Kapex or TS55/75... I joke with anyone that has marked something with a line... and I ask them do you want me to cut on the left side, the right side, the middle, or just where on that wide mark you made do you want me to cut.

When they look at me like I'm talking another language,. I take the Kapex and I cut sliver off of whatever is handy and when they can see that it is translucent... they start to understand how fine the Festools can cut. 

Cheers,
Steve

 
Steve R said:
Ken Nagrod said:
Steve,

You do deli meat too?
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If Festools sells a blade for it....sure [big grin]

Cheers,
Steve
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There's an old story, which I believe to be true, about the Danish American furniture maker Tage Frid, told by his shop assistant.  Tage had his shop in a separate building near the house.  One day the shop phone rang and Tage began a somewhat heated conversation in Danish.  The assistant guessed it was with his wife.
Tage slammed down the phone and stormed out of the shop.  A few minutes later, he returned with a big hunk of frozen meat under his arm.  He walked over to the bandsaw, cleaned it up some, then sliced the meat into steaks.  Wiped off the table and stormed back out.
The assistant said he took it on himself to give the saw a good, thorough cleaning. [blink]
 
Jesse Cloud said:
Steve R said:
Ken Nagrod said:
Steve,

You do deli meat too?
Click to expand...

If Festools sells a blade for it....sure [big grin]

Cheers,
Steve
Click to expand...
There's an old story, which I believe to be true, about the Danish American furniture maker Tage Frid, told by his shop assistant.  Tage had his shop in a separate building near the house.  One day the shop phone rang and Tage began a somewhat heated conversation in Danish.  The assistant guessed it was with his wife.
Tage slammed down the phone and stormed out of the shop.  A few minutes later, he returned with a big hunk of frozen meat under his arm.  He walked over to the bandsaw, cleaned it up some, then sliced the meat into steaks.  Wiped off the table and stormed back out.
The assistant said he took it on himself to give the saw a good, thorough cleaning. [blink]
Click to expand...

Jesse,

That is priceless story... even if it is not true.

Cheers,
Steve
 
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