How to cut (cross, rip and mitre) reclaimed hardwood sleepers made from Azobe

[surfjungle]

How much cutting are we talking about? 5, 10, 100 sleepers? I would use a hand saw unless you need to rip cut a lot.
I'd test cut with whatever power tool you have as I'm afraid lumber treated with creosote will gum up the teeth quickly.
Also, where are the pictures [big grin].

I have no photos as I haven't bought anything yet. I'll buy when I'm reasonably sure I know what I'm doing [wink]
There would be about 25 sleepers at 2.6 metres. All would be cut in half, so that's 25 cross cuts and about 1/3 would be rip cut which is 8 (x2 given they're in 1.3 metre lengths now) would be 16.
I can't easily rent a Festool sword saw to test and that's a great observation in terms of creosote gumming up blades.
Thanks!

 

[surfjungle]

What is a sleeper?

Timber beams used under train tracks. Usually an extremely hard and dense timber, perfect for re-use.

Don't railway sleepers contain creosote? That may not play well with small plants & bushes.

So far as I'm aware sleepers in OZ don't, at least I've never seen or heard of it here, maybe as we have a large supply of super dense redgum and ironbark which practically last forever in large slab sizes.

I got hold of some really old red ironbark sleepers recently to make door stop blocks from, and it's just about like machining stone! ;-)

It's unclear to me if they contain creosote and is something I will check. I've seen no mention and they don't look like that from the photos the builder provider provided.

 

[surfjungle]

When I looked up “azobe” I learned that it is a wood from Africa. And that it is very dense and resistant to decay. So that would seem to be a great material to use in the garden/lawn. In fact, it is not obvious to me why one would want to put it on gravel.
Regarding the Festool Swordsaw: where you are located do they let you tryout their tools for 30 days and return if not satisfied at end of that period?

It's good of you to look it up. The reason for gravel is to ensure proper drainage such that the wood is not sitting on clay, bark mulch or anything that holds water and prematurely rots the wood.
I'm based in Ireland but would buy the tool from Germany as I frequently do these days to save on the cost. Buying Festool in Ireland means I pay an additional premium of at least 20%. Festool's 3 year guarantee will apply as long as I purchase it from a registered dealer so I have a great opportunity to save money. I'm all for supporting local business but when there 250 to 400 Euro in the difference if buying a product around 1300 Euro, the answer is a resounding No! I spoke to a small local business carrying Festool and they said that the prices are set and they don't make much despite the massive difference. I have no reason to disbelieve the man yet I still will not throw that type of money away.

 

[surfjungle]

So far as I'm aware sleepers in OZ don't, at least I've never seen or heard of it here, maybe as we have a large supply of super dense redgum and ironbark which practically last forever in large slab sizes.

I got hold of some really old red ironbark sleepers recently to make door stop blocks from, and it's just about like machining stone! ;-)

FWIW..."sleepers in the US"... aka railroad ties... are usually manufactured from white oak with a HEAVY application of creosote added in. The "used" versions have been traditionally offered to the US public for free because it was a cost effective way to get rid of the carcinogenic stuff rather than having to follow government guidelines.

"Telephone poles" (high voltage home-to-home pole supports) are also creosote treated and have a life expectancy of 50+ years. The "telephone pole" in our back yard was installed in 1953 and is still functional but it's starting to wane. I'll give it another 10 years.

My neighbor built a raised planter using free railroad ties to frame the exterior boundaries. He tried to grow raspberries within the perimeter framed area but the results were not very encouraging...he eventually gave up and it's now a graveyard for weeds.  [sad]

Thanks for the heads-up and warning. I'm based in Ireland which tends to have a lot of regulations around chemicals, probably thanks to the EU. I'll be sure to check out if preservatives were used.

 

[woodbutcherbower]

Why not stop over-thinking this and just cut them using your recip saw? This is garden landscaping, not Sheraton-level cabinet making.

That's a very fair point indeed. I've thought about it a few times but am concerned that the blade will wander too much given the size of the sleeper and size of the blade (about a foot / 305mm). If all cuts were cross, that would be one thing but keeping it straight for 1.3 metres (I'll cut all sleepers at 2.6 metres in half) is a difficult ask.

Understood. So Plan B should be the stellar Mafell P1CC jigsaw fitted with the equally stellar Bosch 200mm coarse blade. Works using a Festool rail and a guide rail square (TSO or similar) if you need an exact 90-degree square end. For rips, the jigsaw comes with a parallel fence. Blade always cuts 100% square to the face thanks to Mafell's unique blade clamp. How do I know this? Because I spend a quarter of my life using the above combo to slice up green oak beams and cut fancy scrolls on the ends of 6" thick gable posts. I use the same combo to cut half-laps in the post ends, meaning that your other question (how to lock them together) is done by using an auger to drill through the half-lap, and then inserting a couple of kiln-dried oak wedge pegs through the joint. Old-school, but tried & trusted. The older it gets - the tighter it gets.

 

[surfjungle]

Why not stop over-thinking this and just cut them using your recip saw? This is garden landscaping, not Sheraton-level cabinet making.

That's a very fair point indeed. I've thought about it a few times but am concerned that the blade will wander too much given the size of the sleeper and size of the blade (about a foot / 305mm). If all cuts were cross, that would be one thing but keeping it straight for 1.3 metres (I'll cut all sleepers at 2.6 metres in half) is a difficult ask.

Understood. So Plan B should be the stellar Mafell P1CC jigsaw fitted with the equally stellar Bosch 200mm coarse blade. Works using a Festool rail and a guide rail square (TSO or similar) if you need an exact 90-degree square end. For rips, the jigsaw comes with a parallel fence. Blade always cuts 100% square to the face thanks to Mafell's unique blade clamp. How do I know this? Because I spend a quarter of my life using the above combo to slice up green oak beams and cut fancy scrolls on the ends of 6" thick gable posts. I use the same combo to cut half-laps in the post ends, meaning that your other question (how to lock them together) is done by using an auger to drill through the half-lap, and then inserting a couple of kiln-dried oak wedge pegs through the joint. Old-school, but tried & trusted. The older it gets - the tighter it gets.

Now that's an extremely interesting proposition. I am familiar with the P1 cc. I've seen a bunch of videos on it. I did think about it for about 2 seconds and dismissed it simply because this is 130mm in hardwood. However, given your own professional experience, you've cracked that idea wide open again. This is interesting for a number of reasons namely because it's both significantly cheaper and I would have more use for a precision jigsaw than a sword saw. I have an old Makita 600 watt D handle jigsaw I bought when I was kid a generation ago but I down it has the motor or tech. to work like this.
Thank you kindly for this, it could work out extremely well given you're experience here.

I think Festool may have licensed TSO's rail square as they have something that looks almost identical come out recently from what I've seen. I could use that with my existing rails.

The half lap with the auger and pin is a tremendous idea!

Some questions:
1. What size dowel would you recommend for the half-lap joints?
2. Can you give me more information on the blades you use? It's hard to find anything long (250mm) for hardwood.

Thanks again! : )

 

[woodbutcherbower]

[member=75310]surfjungle[/member] You’re most welcome. Here’s a link to the 250mm blades;
https://topstools.com/product/5pcs-t1044d-250mm-6-tpi-extra-long-jigsaw-blades-jstt1044d/

These are generic versions of the Bosch T1044’s and are only 6tpi so they’ll do the job. It’s not worth buying premium blades because they wear out just as quickly as the generic ones in my experience, and only three quid a blade is significant - because you’ll get through some. Bear in mind that 250mm is the overall blade length - the actual cutting capacity is 200mm. Set the saw’s pendulum action to maximum, go slowly, and let the machine do its job. Once the blade starts to dull and the saw starts to struggle - change the blade.

Re the half-laps - I use 18mm kiln-dried oak dowel. You’ll find it at most timber merchants. Use an 18mm spade bit to drill through the top part of the lap, and once you’re through to the bottom part - swap to a 17mm bit for the other half of the joint. Use a utility knife to ‘shave’ the ‘entry’ part of the dowel into a gentle wedge shape (you only need to remove a few mm, just enough to allow it to enter your hidden 17mm hole). Shave just the last 50mm or so. Then insert the peg into the 18mm hole, and hammer it home with a mallet. You’ll obviously feel resistance once the dowel enters the 17mm section - but a tight fit is the the whole idea. Finally - cut the peg flush at the exposed face (a good excuse to buy a Japanese Ryoba saw). One peg will do the job - but I usually use either 2 or 3 depending on the width of the sleeper. Your spade bits;

Screwfix part no. 130RR (17mm x 400mm long)
Screwfix part no. 790RR (18mm version of above)

And finally - moving sleepers around is best done using a sack truck. Screwfix part no. 3602P is a cheap-but-strong one with a 300kg capacity. Also great for paving slabs, bags of gravel, washing machines, fridges etc. If you need to move heavy stuff over a non-hard surface - go backwards, pulling the truck towards you rather than pushing it.

Hope the above helps. Best of luck with the project.
Kevin

 

[surfjungle]

[member=75310]surfjungle[/member] You’re most welcome. Here’s a link to the 250mm blades;
https://topstools.com/product/5pcs-t1044d-250mm-6-tpi-extra-long-jigsaw-blades-jstt1044d/

These are generic versions of the Bosch T1044’s and are only 6tpi so they’ll do the job. It’s not worth buying premium blades because they wear out just as quickly as the generic ones in my experience, and only three quid a blade is significant - because you’ll get through some. Bear in mind that 250mm is the overall blade length - the actual cutting capacity is 200mm. Set the saw’s pendulum action to maximum, go slowly, and let the machine do its job. Once the blade starts to dull and the saw starts to struggle - change the blade.

Re the half-laps - I use 18mm kiln-dried oak dowel. You’ll find it at most timber merchants. Use an 18mm spade bit to drill through the top part of the lap, and once you’re through to the bottom part - swap to a 17mm bit for the other half of the joint. Use a utility knife to ‘shave’ the ‘entry’ part of the dowel into a gentle wedge shape (you only need to remove a few mm, just enough to allow it to enter your hidden 17mm hole). Shave just the last 50mm or so. Then insert the peg into the 18mm hole, and hammer it home with a mallet. You’ll obviously feel resistance once the dowel enters the 17mm section - but a tight fit is the the whole idea. Finally - cut the peg flush at the exposed face (a good excuse to buy a Japanese Ryoba saw). One peg will do the job - but I usually use either 2 or 3 depending on the width of the sleeper. Your spade bits;

Screwfix part no. 130RR (17mm x 400mm long)
Screwfix part no. 790RR (18mm version of above)

And finally - moving sleepers around is best done using a sack truck. Screwfix part no. 3602P is a cheap-but-strong one with a 300kg capacity. Also great for paving slabs, bags of gravel, washing machines, fridges etc. If you need to move heavy stuff over a non-hard surface - go backwards, pulling the truck towards you rather than pushing it.

Hope the above helps. Best of luck with the project.
Kevin

You hope the above helps? This is the best reply for advice I can ever remember receiving on the Internet and I've been online since 2000. A genuine and huge THANK YOU!

I've done a bit more research on your suggestions and if this project goes ahead, I think that I can manage with the Mafell P1 cc. I take it that the Carvex / Trion may struggle ergo the Mafell recommendation. The main thing is that for 130mm hardwood, you're reasonably sure it will cut straight.

I see many options for blades on Amazon and elsewhere. For 130mm wood, 180mm length blade seems fine given the stroke of the P1 is 26mm. I take your point about not going nuts buying high quality when they'll all be blunted at around the same rate. I note that the pendulum action must be on full and not to be aggressive with the machine and to be aware of the machine progress which is most likely indicative of the blades sharpness or lack thereof.

Thanks for providing the Screwfix part numbers for the flat bits and Sack Truck. We have Screwfix in Ireland. That said, I may buy a set of Famag Bormax 2.0 forstner bits with extensions if I don't get those flat bits you recommended. I have a few Japanese saws over varying sizes already - I love them - so it'll be great to see one of them get more use.

Thanks for the advice on the Sack Truck. I already have one but have a very narrow passageway between the house and our neighbour. Perhaps I'll cut the sleepers in 2 out front and use the Sack Truck to bring the 1.3m lengths around back. Great advice on going backwards for heavy stuff on non-hard surfaces!

Thanks again for this. I'm very grateful

 

[woodbutcherbower]

[member=75310]surfjungle[/member] You're most welcome once again. The P1CC is a beast of a jigsaw - but its main advantages are the Cuprex motor which is seemingly indestructible, but most importantly - its blade clamping mechanism which pretty much guarantees that your cut will be at 90 degrees to the face. I don't think I've ever experienced blade wander, even when doing curved or scroll cuts on 4-5" thick stock. Plus as you say - you'll acquire a machine which I'm sure will then get used for loads of other jobs.

FYI - If you do decide to go with Forstners rather than spades, run them at slow (screwdriver) speed and vacuum out the hole every 25-30mm. They'll cut much better.

Good luck!!
Kevin

 

[surfjungle]

[member=75310]surfjungle[/member] You're most welcome once again. The P1CC is a beast of a jigsaw - but its main advantages are the Cuprex motor which is seemingly indestructible, but most importantly - its blade clamping mechanism which pretty much guarantees that your cut will be at 90 degrees to the face. I don't think I've ever experienced blade wander, even when doing curved or scroll cuts on 4-5" thick stock. Plus as you say - you'll acquire a machine which I'm sure will then get used for loads of other jobs.

FYI - If you do decide to go with Forstners rather than spades, run them at slow (screwdriver) speed and vacuum out the hole every 25-30mm. They'll cut much better.

Good luck!!
Kevin

Thanks again. Just to let you know, I just ordered the Mafell P1 cc. I expect to use it in a few months on the hardwood sleepers. I have also found those TopsTools jigsaw blades in 180mm and greater and will order them closer to the time. I'll reply here in due course with some observations in case they're helpful to others. Again, I really appreciate your insight. Much obliged!

 

[woodbutcherbower]

[member=75310]surfjungle[/member] Very good of you to keep us updated, and congrats on the new saw. I’m pretty sure you’ll love it. Looking forward to further updates in due course !!

All the best,
Kevin

 

[surfjungle]

[member=75310]surfjungle[/member] Very good of you to keep us updated, and congrats on the new saw. I’m pretty sure you’ll love it. Looking forward to further updates in due course !!

All the best,
Kevin

Hello again Kevin. Just a quick update. I had no time this summer to work on the sleepers with the Mafell P1 cc. However, I've been doing some work on the house and been using the Mafell. While I'm happy with it, I've found an issue. It overheats. I have not been using it excessively, or even moderately and just for 12mm ply cuts and little else. I've found it overheated to the point it was almost too hot to hold in a specific place, down my by index finger of my right hand. This appears to be a know issue. I'm disappointed that Mafell have not fixed it. Apparently this fella fixed it and made a video and is probably something I'm going to have to do if I plan on using it more seriously (see link below) - have you or anybody else had similar issues?
=307s

 

[woodbutcherbower]

[member=75310]surfjungle[/member] Hello again to you, too. My P1CC is 7 years old and it gets absolutely hammered. I’ve never known it get any hotter than slightly warm to the touch - so something’s wrong. Rather than emulate YouTube hacks which will invalidate your warranty and which may not even be electrically or mechanically safe - my best advice is to contact NMA who are the UK importer for Mafell. They have an excellent service department and are very knowledgeable. Their number’s 01484-400488.

Hope you get fixed up.

Kevin