HVLP for on site spraying

[jimbouk]

You guys are so much help, thank you!

Heres the compressor I have...

http://www.raygrahams.com/products/456-stanley-bostitch-sfc-rc6-u110-15hp-110v-6l-roll-cage-compressor.aspx?gclid=CMHu-d2H9bQCFcjKtAodd3wA6Q

I think I'm leaning towards hvlp with a pressure pot, at the moment.

 

[tiralie]

Small compressor, 2 gallon pressure pot (so you can just set in the can and not have to clean the pot) I have a Fugi Q4 that allows the pot hose to be connected to the cup inlet. You'll need the #6 atomizer set.

Cool. What gun gravity or siphon?
Tim

 

[mastercabman]

You guys are so much help, thank you!

Heres the compressor I have...

http://www.raygrahams.com/products/456-stanley-bostitch-sfc-rc6-u110-15hp-110v-6l-roll-cage-compressor.aspx?gclid=CMHu-d2H9bQCFcjKtAodd3wA6Q

I think I'm leaning towards hvlp with a pressure pot, at the moment.

I don't think that is a great choice for a compressor,even if you are using a low hp hvlp spray gun.It's going to run and run and run.......and then stop.
I have a 2 hp 4 gallons compressor for my cat jr touch up gun.I then use a 25 gallons 2 hp rollair(not mine,i borrow it from a friend when need it)for my hvlp gravity gun for bigger jobs.

 

[tiralie]

I don't think that is a great choice for a compressor,even if you are using a low hp hvlp spray gun.It's going to run and run and run.......and then stop.
I have a 2 hp 4 gallons compressor for my cat jr touch up gun.I then use a 25 gallons 2 hp rollair(not mine,i borrow it from a friend when need it)for my hvlp gravity gun for bigger jobs.

Hmmm, I think it would be OK for a pressure pot. Logically, there's not a lot of CFM's being drawn off the pressure pot (the turbine provides the CFM's) just a consistent 10lbs which almost any compressor should handle.

The on the down side if it needs that much CFM, and it's running 100% he'll just burn out the compressor sooner...

Those Rollair compressors are nice. Some are rated at 100% duty cycle. I would love to test that [big grin].

Tim

 

[mastercabman]

I don't think that is a great choice for a compressor,even if you are using a low hp hvlp spray gun.It's going to run and run and run.......and then stop.
I have a 2 hp 4 gallons compressor for my cat jr touch up gun.I then use a 25 gallons 2 hp rollair(not mine,i borrow it from a friend when need it)for my hvlp gravity gun for bigger jobs.

Hmmm, I think it would be OK for a pressure pot. Logically, there's not a lot of CFM's being drawn off the pressure pot (the turbine provides the CFM's) just a consistent 10lbs which almost any compressor should handle.

The on the down side if it needs that much CFM, and it's running 100% he'll just burn out the compressor sooner...

Those Rollair compressors are nice. Some are rated at 100% duty cycle. I would love to test that [big grin].

Tim

Turbine and compressor are two different system.Turbines puts out cfm's but not much psi,compressors can put out lots of psi but not as much cfm.
Look at the difference in  hoses size! Unless he is planning to use a turbine for air and compressor to push the fluid in the pot(never really seen that before)
Pressure pot or not you still need proper air psi and cfm to atomize the product.even if you only need 10 psi at the gun.
I have used my little roll air jc10 to do some touch up with my CAT jr it did ok,but it ran a lot,more than i think it is rated for.
Good thing i was just doing touch up/small painting area.

 

[tiralie]

Look at the difference in  hoses size! Unless he is planning to use a turbine for air and compressor to push the fluid in the pot(never really seen that before)

Yes that is what Tom has suggested, it is possible and I believe, if I have understood correctly that the OP wants to use or at the very least is considering this set up.
Tim

 

[mastercabman]

Look at the difference in  hoses size! Unless he is planning to use a turbine for air and compressor to push the fluid in the pot(never really seen that before)

Yes that is what Tom has suggested, it is possible and I believe, if I have understood correctly that the OP wants to use or at the very least is considering this set up.
Tim

OK I did not realized that's what he wants to do.I wouldn't go that route.2 machines going on at the same time?I think he'll be better off with one of them but not both.
I have a turbine system but do not use it any more.

 

[tiralie]

I have a turbine system but do not use it any more.

Ya, I prefer my CAT guns to the Fuji guns.
My Fuji does a good job and I will use it particularly when humidity is high. I can get a great finish with it but I am not that thrilled with the gun compared to the CAT's.
Tim

 

[tjbnwi]

It was mention that the compressor HVLP system is widely used in the automotive finish field. It is the gun of choice due to the infrastructure of the building. I have a 5 hp 40 gallon compressor in my shop, I prefer to use my Q4 to spray automotive finishes. Pattern and fluid control are better on the Fugi than any other gun I have owned or used.  I started spraying cars in the early '70's, anywhere starting with the mundane daily drive to high five figure trailered only show cars.

I'm not sure how to prove it except the knowledge from other fields, but I believe the fluid delivery temperature for either a compressor driven or turbine driven HVLP gun will be the same (assumes same needle and orfice size). Have you ever wondered where the water in your compressor tank comes from? It condenses on the side of the tank as the heat caused by compression exits through the tank. The heat energy pass through, the water molecules do not and condense. Because the air is stored, it cools. In a turbine system, the handle of the gun becomes warm because the air flow is restricted, this restriction becomes a compression point. Again, the heat of compression comes into play. Unplug the hose, it is sensibly ambient.  Why no water condensation? Time, the molecules are not there long enough to condense. So how can the tip temp be the same? There is a venturie effect when the air exits the tip. This affect is how siphon guns work. As the constricted air enters open atmosphere it rapidly expands and cools. The evaporative affect.

To answer your question Tim, I use the Fugi gravity feed gun. If you add the 3M PPS system you have an easy change system. I like the fact that the Fugi is a non-bleed gun.

Scott, I believe the doors were a victim of circumstances. I've used the fine finish tips on vertical surfaces with no problems. Hard to tell the way things are going on if you can't see the surface well. Comes down to gun technique. I do agree a AAA is a better choice.

Jim, your compressor will run a pressure pot. All you need is enough pressure to get the fluid from pot to tip. Believe it or not, the pressure can be your greatest enemy. If it is to low, spotty delivery, to high and the fluid passes the air cap before it can be atomized and properly patterned.

As I understand the it, the OP wants to use a system in the field to apply water bourne primers in the field. Thus my suggestions. Why I made the suggestions;

Wihen trying to spray heavier bodied material without thinning an HVLP system can struggle. The on board cup is pressurized off the turbine, somewhere between 8-10 psi. This pressure may not be high enough to efficiently move the fluid to the tip. I have the #6 tip and unthinned heavy primers and paints are a struggle to say the least. (I normally spray between 22-40 seconds on a Ford 4 depending on tip size).

On my Fugi, the cup and angle fitting are removed. A fluid hose from the pot is installed to the fitting on the gun. The turbine hose is connected as normal. The pot has a regulator. Connect an air compressor to the regulator. Most pots have a blow off pressure of 40 psi. Spray test patterns, adjust fluid needle and pot pressure. I believe SW Wall and Wood is a 70 second material unthinned. I get execelant delivery and finish with a pot pressure of 15-18 pounds with a #6 tip and the fluid needle about 50% and a #5 air cap. Depending on your spray technique the compressor does not run to often. (I have an Emglo 2hp twin tank, I just got a Rolair Jc-10 I will try some day) Remember, you just added 1.5 to 2.5 gallons to your tank capacity, depending on how much fluid is in the pot. Inside a cabinet, no cup is very nice. As with any system corner rebound can be an issue.

I don't know of any compressor driven HVLP gun that will shoot full body primer without thinning. Depending on the cup attachment it is most likely possible to use a pressure pot. Depending on the gun there aren't many field carry compressors that will easily support a HVLP gun.

To the OP, look into Sherwin Williams Kem-Aqua Plus. It is tintable and applies like a clear sealer. Tough as he!!, easy to repair.

The Fugi 2.5 gallon pressure pot;

http://www.phelpsrefinishing.com/pressurepots.html

Tom

 

[Scott B.]

I believe the fluid delivery temperature for either a compressor driven or turbine driven HVLP gun will be the same

Tom, no, there is a big difference there. Compressor driven rigs (in my life) run WAY cooler than turbines. Turbines deliver notoriously warm. Thats why we all use hose whips. Apollo has the best design for delivery of cool air in a turbine. However the Kremlin pneumatic pumps we have been running lately are stone cold, its amazing.

Comes down to gun technique. I do agree a AAA is a better choice.

Yes and no. Technique can be flawless, but the limitations of the technology (overspray, transfer inefficiency, pressure range) still exist. Overspray is actually the killer of airless ff. Too much airborne looking for places to settle.

 

[tjbnwi]

Tim,

I just looked at the CAT web site 11 CFM at 29 PSI?

Which one do you have and why do you like it?  I see it can be hooked to a pot or PPS.

Tom

 

[mastercabman]

Tim,

I just looked at the CAT web site 11 CFM at 29 PSI?

Which one do you have and why do you like it?  I see it can be hooked to a pot or PPS.

Tom

Im not tim,but yes 11cfm at 29 psi.I have the jaguar 100 with PPS.
Still today there are a lots of pro finisher that uses conventional spray gun.Those set up will pretty much shoot anything [laughing]
And i agree with Tim about the heat comming from a turbine.It just gets hot.
Air comming out of a compressor at high psi will be cool and when i open the drain valve of my compressor and let the air fast,i allways see ice!
You also mention that you use your fuji gun with a compressor,i also have a fuji gun but it is for turbine use.
I do like it but i prefer my CAT!!!

Sorry i meant  Scott!

 

[tjbnwi]

I still have all my siphon guns, no way they'll shoot water bourne primer or laytex paint.

As I said, I don't know of any field carry compressor that will produce 11CFM. That leaves these guns out for what the OP wants to do. Any chance of you (or Tim) trying to shoot full bodied primer through the gun? I know how SW Wall and Wood shoots through the Fugi. If you wouldn't mind???

I guess I wasn't clear, yes I know there is heat from the turbine. Not as much heat as produced while the air is being compressed in your tank. Your statement about the petcock icing shows my point about evaporative cooling. As the air came out of the it expanded and cooled. Same reason why the valves on the Bilagio fountain where freezing on 100+° days, in 80° water. That is why I feel the fluid delivery should be the same on either compressor or turbine systems.

My Fugi gun is run off the turbine, the only time I use a compressor with it is when I'm delivering the fluid to the head from the pressure pot. The compressor only pressurizes the pot, the tip discharge is via turbine flow.

Why do you prefer the CAT? I'm always looking to improve.

Scott, I looked at the Apollo. Don't recall why I chose the Fugi. I don't make tool decesions based on cost, so I know it wasn't that. I guess I'll have to Google Kremlin.

Tom

 

[Scott B.]

Tom

This is their new(ish) 15:1 pump. It replaces their old 10.14, which is also a very good pump in lower to mid viscosities. This one, called EOS, is good in mid to highs. This video is shooting unthinned exterio SW Duration, which is pretty thick. The Xcite gun may be the best I have used.

 

[tjbnwi]

Scott,

That is an AAA, correct? Is it self contained or do you need an external compressor.

Tom

 

[tjbnwi]

One other thing about using a pressure pot with HVLP, gun position does not matter. The fluid is getting to the head no matter what. The PPS system allows this, but no cup at all is more convenient.

Tom

 

[Scott B.]

Scott,

That is an AAA, correct? Is it self contained or do you need an external compressor.

Tom

Thats a "can of worms" question. By definition (air assissted airless), it is not a "true" aaa. Ordinary aaa is just an airless pump with a small compressor bolted on. The Kremlin has no "airless" component. The piston is pneumatic, driven by a large external compressor. It took some doing to find a compressor that would pair well with this pump. It is more a function of tank capacity to keep up with this pump. So, technically, this is a pneumatic pump, but it will be lumped with the aaa's by category online and in catalogs etc (even on my site), because aaa is the technology it most closely resembles. However, the pressures that you can operate this rig at are closer to hvlp than aaa. The difference between this and hvlp are that this is more like lvlp - low velocity and low pressure working together.

The similarities to aaa are that it does run the same concept of a fluid and air line from the pump to the gun, aaf style tips and an injection of air at the tip - a tidy envelope of air that wraps and focuses the fluid fan to minimize turbulence and airborne dispersion. Kremlin calls their air injection "airmix" and it is different in orifice configuration from aaa orifices. The gun is somewhat lighter and has a swivel fitting where the hose connects, which makes it a more true extension of your hand/wrist in tight space applications, such as inside boxes.

So, as above, in my critique of the shortcomings of airless ff setups, this one is low pressure and ultimate efficiency. Also, in comparison to aaa, nice to not have to listen to the chug of the aaa compressor and unloader all day. We can now actually hear the radio and the sound of paint laying down.

 

[tjbnwi]

Thanks Scott. Is the compressor your shop compressor? I assume the piston cycles when a low pressure threshold is reached. I heard it on the video a couple of times and knew it was a positive displacement piston pump. I use to service a Graco twin piston unit that delivered 2 part potting compound through a twin port gun with a spiral blending tip. Sound just like that when it cycled.

You mention one thing that really gets to me. Guns without swivel or rotating connectors. I've used rigs that belong to others and want to throw the cheep a.. gun across the room. Sometimes people just don't know what their missing.

Tom

 

[Scott B.]

Thanks Scott. Is the compressor your shop compressor? I assume the piston cycles when a low pressure threshold is reached. I heard it on the video a couple of times and knew it was a positive displacement piston pump. I use to service a Graco twin piston unit that delivered 2 part potting compound through a twin port gun with a spiral blending tip. Sound just like that when it cycled.

You mention one thing that really gets to me. Guns without swivel or rotating connectors. I've used rigs that belong to others and want to throw the cheep a.. gun across the room. Sometimes people just don't know what their missing.

Tom

Correct, Tom. The 16'ers we are spraying are probably the max in constant trigger engagement that most people will do, so that made it a good way to check out the cycles. Also, it takes some dialing to avoid "winking" in the spray pattern during the stroke of the piston. You can get a little skip in the upstroke of the piston if not in the sweet spot of the settings.

Yes, it is running off our shop compressor. We tried it on 3 different skids and pancakes and the eos would just drain them. So, we went out and bought a 33 gallon tank to run this, and its 10.14 sibling. We have video footage of the 10.14 in Zar Ultramax spraying about 4000 lf of pine shiplap. Smaller pump and even lower settings.

I have been told (but have not worked with) that the CaT and Merkur setups are similar to Kremlin.

And yes, its the little things, like a well placed swivel fitting that make a big difference. Speaking of which, one other key difference between this and the mainstream aaa pumps we use is that the hose is under such lower pressure that it is MUCH easier for the operator to manage. We never realized how much it sucked wrestling with a high pressure anaconda. The Kremlin hose just lays there and you can flop it around with little resistance. Sometimes a bunch of small things add up to make a big difference.

We have gotten a little bit away from the original posters needs, but this discussion is definitely covering some ground in different sprayer technologies. It is a lot to sort out and keep up with.

 

[tiralie]

Tom:
Because I will only spray water borne I bought the CAT H20. I have both a CPR I hook to my pressure pot and a H20 CPR with a PPS gravity cup. I use the conventional caps vs. HVLP caps. If I want true HVLP, I will use the Fuji.

I recently bought a Lynx 100 H for spraying dye etc. using with my 2 HP 4 gallon compressor.
I haven't got round to using it yet. Bit of a long story.

When I spray dye with the Fuji gun (gravity) it leaks where the needle passes into the back of the spray head. While it mists the dye really well, those drips can drive you nuts. It's really quite irritating in the middle of a project. I clean my guns (needles, caps etc.) after each spray so it's not a build up of paint. There is a fair amount of slop in the plunge of the needle which is not present in the CAT gun.

I have a PPS system for my Fuji guns because the aluminum cups are difficult to clean. Not a huge problem. I am just not sure that the Fuji guns were designed for water-borne, but frankly out side of the mechanical issues, I get as good a finish with it as I do with the CAT albeit a bit slower.
The trigger control on the CAT is more responsive and solid and I like the more traditional fan/fluid adjustments.

I have also found that spraying heavy viscosity paint with the Fuji I can get better results with a smaller tip/cap. So where you are using a #6 for primer, I would use a #5 set. It just seems to atomize better and lay down a lot nicer, I don't tend to put too much on (heavy handed) than with the larger #6 set.

Any chance of you (or Tim) trying to shoot full bodied primer through the gun? I know how SW Wall and Wood shoots through the Fugi. If you wouldn't mind???

I have shot some Target EM 6500 (without thinning) which I believe is equivalent to SW Wood and Wall primer in terms of solids and viscosity and it was painfully slow and felt like I was spraying thin plaster. Like I said above if I have to use the Fuji, I get better results with the #5 set and 5-10% of distilled water .
Tim