I'm about to go 'full-dip' - help a guy out...Kapex or Domino?

[WarnerConstCo.]

I am busted on the Domino.  I know many high end cabinet guys that do all their joining with a Kreg Foreman machine and a few biscuits.

I think the domino is great, if you have the need.  Doing on site paneled walls and built-in's, I think the domino would slow you down vs. pocket screws.
Not to mention you would need to bring a shops worth of clamps with you too.

There are things you can do with a Domino that you can't do with everything else.

I admit that when I set up my Kapex with all the other goodies (table, crown stops, support wings, and my vac) I just got out $3,000 worth of stuff.

If you are a serious trim carpenter, I think a great miter saw set up is really the anchor to your work.  

The dust extraction with the Kapex is great, I use my CT with it outside, inside and every where between.  I think it would be awesome in a new house build, keep the mess down and save a ton of clean up.

 

[RPSmith]

Man, you guys ROCK!  I'm gone for two hours and come back to an informed dissertation  [big grin].

I think I'll start with the Domino.  rxe said it best:  it's transformational.

You're right Tim, I'm going to be getting both.  I agree with most here that I should get the tool that opens up a whole new world rather than one that does something 'a little better'.  The Makita has gotten me this far (not to mention that I have all the stuff that goes with it).  I hadn't thought about how much the extras would cost to make the Kapex do all it's capable of.

Fritter 63:  I like your 'brown bag approach.  Years ago I fought my way out of debt with the same strategy and it was the smartest business move I ever made.  I've already begun my Festool slush fund (for a Kapex perhaps  :)

dsweetster and Shane:  Good to know that the 55" won't work with 4' sheet goods.  I plan on using the 75" for that.  The 55" is more for the router/hole drilling setup.

I have tossed and turned about the 55 vs. 75 decision, but I do a fair number of door cut-downs and solid lumber work.  Enough that I think the 75 is the way to go.  We all know that a 55 is in my future  .

Along those lines, Bill, a 1010 is in the future also - it just seems that the 1400 is more versatile - and I *do* own a lot of 1/2" bits.

I'm somewhat on the fence still about the vacuums.  It's between the Midi and the CT26.  I thought about he portability of the Midi and it sounds like it has enough walnuts to handle the router or the TS75.  Am I mistaken in this?  I could see the Kapex requiring a bigger setup.  Ease of portability is a big deal since I show up in a pickup truck.  Many times I am on the job for months at a time - other times I'm flitting about doing random installs.  I figured the Midi would hold me until - wait for it - I get the 26 also.

Is there a drinking group to help me with my Festool addiction?!

Thank you for the warm welcome - this place is great!

RPS

 

[ThomasC]

I agree with much that has been said. I have the Kapex and the Domino. The Kapex earns me more money, but the Domino really shines for certain tasks. I still tend to build more faceframes with pocket holes than dominos. Mostly because I don't own enough looong clamps. Regarding your questions of dust collection: I have a ct22 and a MIDI. The 22 rarely leaves the shop and the MIDI goes with me everywhere. I have Dust Deputies on both of them. If you go with the the MIDI, you may as well opt for the $99 DD version because you won't be able to connect the Ultimate version on top because of the hose. I have the Ultimate on the 22 and the original version on the MIDI. Both work equally well, IMO. That will save you around $130 to put toward the rest of your purchases. Have fun!

TC

 

[fritter63]

I'm somewhat on the fence still about the vacuums.  It's between the Midi and the CT26.  I thought about he portability of the Midi and it sounds like it has enough walnuts to handle the router or the TS75.  Am I mistaken in this?  I could see the Kapex requiring a bigger setup.  Ease of portability is a big deal since I show up in a pickup truck.  Many times I am on the job for months at a time - other times I'm flitting about doing random installs.  I figured the Midi would hold me until - wait for it - I get the 26 also.

The dealer told me you'd want the 26/36 for better chip collection on things like routers/planers.

As for me, well, my wife burned out my ShopVac just before Christmas. I told her I should just replace it with a CT-36, and she gave me "that look". So with echos of "The Man Song" rumbling through my head, I went down to the local tool place (also a Rockler franchise now!) and picked up a $70 shop vac. After two weeks of use, she burned that out too.

Now, putting aside the temptation to joke about what she was using it fore to burn it out like that....

I told her "that's two you've burned out, now I get one you can't break!"

And it just so happens the tool outlet is also a Festool dealer...

She's actually quite happy with the CT-36, although this morning she said "I need MY vacuum back...."

 

[RPSmith]

The 22 rarely leaves the shop and the MIDI goes with me everywhere.

That's kind of the dilemma - it needs to be portable.  I'm hoping it holds me up until I can afford a CT26 - but that may be a while.

If you go with the the MIDI, you may as well opt for the $99 DD version because you won't be able to connect the Ultimate version on top because of the hose.

I thought I read somewhere that there was a fix for this.  No?

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

I travel with my 22, so I don't see an issue with the 26.

 

[Brice Burrell]

......I think the domino is great, if you have the need.  Doing on site paneled walls and built-in's, I think the domino would slow you down vs. pocket screws.
Not to mention you would need to bring a shops worth of clamps with you too.....

Darcy, I've found the Domino has made onsite joinery easier, more actuate and actually a bit faster.  I don't have time for a long reply explaining some of things I've learned to help speed things up bit I'll get back here a little later when I've got more time. 

 

[ZenMystic]

I love my Domino. You can't go wrong with it. Make sure to get the accessories sys with bits and domino selection. Well worth the money. I also got the RTS jig ( http://www.dominoguide.com/ ) and gave it a test run this past weekend. It's a sweet add-on.

 

[Kodi Crescent]

I'm a beginner doing "carpentry".  I've done lots of remodeling.  I don't have a Kapex, but I do have a Domino.  After getting a Domino I've built nicer stuff than I would have if I didn't have it.  With the Domino I felt confident enough to attempt projects or enhance projects that otherwise would have been plain-Jane or utilitarian at best.

 

[peter halle]

This will sound strange coming from me, but the one Festool I have that I could do without is..............the Domino.

It is a cool tool.  It does what it does well.  I just don't use it as a finish carpenter / repair carpenter as I thought I might.  If I need to do a face frame - I agree with Darcy - pocket holes.

This might all change in the future, but I held out for a Kapex due to the cost for a long time.  When I bought that this summer I kicked myself for not doing it earlier.

My vote would be for the Kapex.

Peter

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

This will sound strange coming from me, but the one Festool I have that I could do without is..............the Domino.

It is a cool tool.  It does what it does well.  I just don't use it as a finish carpenter / repair carpenter as I thought I might.  If I need to do a face frame - I agree with Darcy - pocket holes.

This might all change in the future, but I held out for a Kapex due to the cost for a long time.  When I bought that this summer I kicked myself for not doing it earlier.

My vote would be for the Kapex.

Peter

I knew there was someone else out there. [big grin]

When the time comes that I NEED one, like have to have it or I can't do what I want, I would get one.

I am not even saying pocket screws all the way, I am just saying there are a few quicker ways out in the field, and in the shop.

No matter what, you need to do a lay out with Domino's and you have to make 2 mortise's for each joint.

If someone says domino and pocket screw, well I know that is not fast.

 

[Wood_Junkie]

This will sound strange coming from me, but the one Festool I have that I could do without is..............the Domino.

It is a cool tool.  It does what it does well.  I just don't use it as a finish carpenter / repair carpenter as I thought I might.  If I need to do a face frame - I agree with Darcy - pocket holes.

This might all change in the future, but I held out for a Kapex due to the cost for a long time.  When I bought that this summer I kicked myself for not doing it earlier.

My vote would be for the Kapex.

Peter

BLASPHEMY!!   [ban]

I really like rxe's comment:  Kapex is incremental, Domino is transformational
That should be somehow incorporated into a Festool marketing slogan.

 

[RPSmith]

You guys are KILLING me!

I just ran my budget without the Domino and I can afford all of the upgrades (the CT26 vs the Midi), and get some of the more useful attachments (the LR 32 Hole Drilling Kit for the OL1400, extra clamps, etc.) and still have a few hundred left over to put against my next purchase (there are so many!)

I have never used a Domino, but after seeing the videos, the possibilities are tantalizing.  I currently biscuit all my butt joints, and biscuit and/or pocket screw my face frames.

I can see its use in furniture legs and carcass construction, but as far as a daily or even weekly tool, am I being short-sighted by not seeing it?

I was all ready to buy this thing but had to crop out some of the other handy items to fit the budget.  Now I'm having second thoughts.

Are all Festool purchases this agonizing?

 

[Wood_Junkie]

This may sound crazy, but do you really need the LR32 system (at this time)?

You could get similar results using a muuuuuch less expensive jig setup (e.g. the Rockler shelf drilling jig is like $40).  Divert that $350-ish.  Have you looked into the drills? 

Make sure you factor in accessories costs.  For example, the vacuum tubes and attachments (the 3 piece kit is a *steal*); clamps you mentioned, but "enough"?  Bags for the vacs; guide rail adapter for the OF1400.  If you get the Domino, the tenons and cutters, etc.

Which LR32 kit are you looking at?  The full blown kit, or the mid-tier?  The full kit comes with two clamps.

Save your pennies for the RO90.  [wink]  Looks to be a carpenter's delight. 

 

[tbellemare]

Mr. Smith:

The biggest difference in biscuit and Domino joints is that Domino joints have considerably more alignment and strength.

With a biscuit, you are essentially aligning the joint in one axis or strength vector. The Domino acts as both an alignment (in two directions) and it's a floating tenon, which gives the joint strength in 360 degrees. It aligns and strengthens in two axes or strength vectors. Because of the rounded corners, it actually imparts less stress to the surrounding material than a squared tenon would. The biscuit, at best, helps in one of the many things a Domino does for a joint.

If you tell us where you live, we could suggest a place to try the Domino or KAPEX - or whatever you are considering.

I think most on this Forum would agree that there is no substitute for trying these tools...

Tom

 

[RPSmith]

This may sound crazy, but do you really need the LR32 system (at this time)?

Rockler shelf drilling jig is like $40.

That's a good question and a good piece of advice.  Part of what I'm trying to do with all this Festool stuff is step my game up a little.  After 18 years, I'm proud of where I am, but I want to be better.  These tools (I hope) will help me get there.  

I've made various drilling guides only to have them get lost or broken or sprout legs.

The LR32 is a *system* - one that seems easy to use and repeatable with good results.  The shop I am affiliated with right now has a lovely line-boring machine that I have used extensively.  We do a lot of one-off cabinets and adjustable-shelf closets and the like.  The LR 32 can't touch it for speed, but the portability option as well as the expansion of the 1400 into 'more than just a router' is irresistible.

Not to mention that I don't own the lone-borer, I'm just 'affiliated' with it.  I would own the LR32.

Junkie, you also make a good case for all the 'extras' and that is where much of the rest of the budget is going.  I don't want to have all these lovely gray boxes show up on my door and not be able to use what's in them to the fullest.  Thanks for the suggestions.  I'll look over my long list and make sure I'm covered.

I guess that's it in a nutshell:  Is the Domino worth it enough to put off buying all the other *needed* items that makes the Festools work so well.

Tom,

Thanks for your analysis - I hadn't considered the rounded-corner/less-stress principle.  And you're right: there is no substitute for trying the stuff out.  It's how I got into this mess in the first place [smile].  There is a Woodcraft store about an hour from me.  I thought I'd let my fingers do the walking first and tap into the braintrust here at FOG.

 

[fatroman]

Since the LR32 is obviously pretty important to your purchase, I'd encourage you to look at the 1010 router instead of the 1400. I've got them both and picked up the 1010 originally for the LR32 setup because I thought it was much easier to plunge one-handed in this arrangement. Since then, I'll say that I really enjoy using it above any other router if possible and it's more powerful than you might think.

Get the edging plate, et al. and you've got a nice setup for trimming edge banding, face frames and the like in the field. Much easier to handle than the 1400 for a scenario like that.

Kapex or Domino? The Domino does things that nothing else does.

 

[RPSmith]

I'd encourage you to look at the 1010 router instead of the 1400.

I have heard from a few sources that the 1010 is not as consistent in drilling holes as the 1400.  I take it this has not been your experience?  The 1010 is definitely 'on the list' (which grows daily). :

The fact that the 1010 can't take 1/2" collets is also a factor.  While I do a lot of work with a laminate trimmer (more than I should probably), I think I should go with the more 'universal' router on my first purchase. 

Kapex or Domino? The Domino does things that nothing else does.

That is it in a nutshell.  The purchase of the Domino will precede the purchase of the Kapex.  Whether I get the Domino in the first purchasing salvo has yet to be decided.

The irony is not lost on me that this thread which started out as 'which one' is in danger of becoming 'neither for now.'  I know all of this is helping me make the best decision.

Thanks for that [big grin]

 

[ccarrolladams]

I have heard from a few sources that the 1010 is not as consistent in drilling holes as the 1400.  I take it this has not been your experience?  The 1010 is definitely 'on the list' (which grows daily). :

The fact that the 1010 can't take 1/2" collets is also a factor.  While I do a lot of work with a laminate trimmer (more than I should probably), I think I should go with the more 'universal' router on my first purchase. 

My extensive experience differs vastly from those "few sources" who prefer the OF1400 for drilling holes.

Currently I own one each OF1400 and OF2200. It is possible to use an OF1400 with the LR32 Guide Plate.

I also own 4 OF1010, two of which are dedicated to LR32 Guide Plates, because in my experience, that is the ideal combination to drill quantities of holes for adjustable shelves and LR32-style cabinet hardware.

Of course the OF1010 does not replace an OF1400 for use with larger bits. The OF1010 has 390 watts less power and uses 8mm as its largest shanks. It has more than enough power to drill 5mm blind or through holes all day long. It also is effective mortising 20mm and 35mm holes for hardware. What those of us who recommend the OF1010 for these tasks like is that the plunge for drilling can be single handed with the OF1010, meaning your other hand can be left on the guide plate, speeding up moving the router to drill the next hole.

Using a router on an LR32 guide plate effectively requires that it remain correctly centered. My experience has been that re-centering the OF1400 takes time away from performing work.  Perhaps that is not a problem for a hobby woodworker. Like you I make money using tools. Because I dedicate 2 OF1010 to LR32 guide plates, my OF1400 is free for general purpose routing. At the same time I have 2 other OF1010 to also do general routing jobs that can be done with 1/4" or 8mm shank bits. This also saves me time since I can leave 1/2" collets in my OF1400 and OF2200.

 

[RPSmith]

Ccarol:  Thank you for your insight.  I see your point about the one-hand operation being easier and thus faster.  The fact that you own 4 of them speaks volumes. 

In your experience, what is the practical upper limit for the 1010?  Can I plow a 3/4" dado 3/8" deep into MDF?