Imperial vs Metric in My Situation

[leakyroof]

Just to toss a little levity into the discussion, I stumbled across this on iFunny this morning. Made me laugh. (It's a joke. Please don't take offense.)

  Bahhhhhh Haaaaaa.... [bite tongue]  [wink]

 

[rst]

Leakyroof, not to rain on your parade but the metric guys just landed on an asteroid, making the moon shot seem stationary.  Of course they didn't have to do it using slide rules.  [eek]

 

[Stephen B]

For many reasons, such as working with old machinery, it is still possible to purchase Imperial tools and accessories in Australia. Sutton drill Bitts, [an Australian company that also exports to NA], have just changed their labelling.

Old stock for 1/8th" drill Bitts had the metric equivalent at 3.17mm; the new labelling, pictured, has 1/8" at 3.18mm.  [eek] So which is correct?

Store manager with tongue in cheek said it was due to-
manufacturing tolerances!  [tongue] [big grin]

Dr Google says - 3.175mm

[attachimg=1]

 

[Steve-Rice]

@ Rick Christopherson: loved your last post! Wish I had a poster of that...

 

[Cheese]

Just to keep the banter going...ran across this. To use this item you need to drill a 5mm hole, 5/16" deep. [eek]
http://woodworker.com/clear-5mm-stem-bumper-mssu-118-220.asp

 

[Holmz]

@ Rick Christopherson: loved your last post! Wish I had a poster of that...

If it wasn't for the Englishman (or maybe Gottfried) we would never have gotten there.

 

[JimD]

There seem to be a lot of people claiming that metric is the measurement system of science.  I am an engineer working in the nuclear power field.  All our designs at least start out imperial.  We will convert if that's what the customer wants but we design in inches and feet.  We do measure uranium in KgU, however, kilograms.  But we measure uranium in pounds.  I don't think you can get too much more serious science than the nuclear field and we are mostly imperial.  But we have facilities in Europe and Japan and if they design the product, the base is metric. 

Any engineer can do the conversions and I can at least remember the mm to inch conversion and do it simply in my head.  But if you tell me something is 1000mm by 2000mm, until I convert it, I have no idea what size that is.  If you say it is 40 by 80 inches, I know.  That simple issue is why people in the U. S. do not want to convert.  A generation of people have to spend years doing mental conversions.  For no net benefit.  We are plenty large enough economically to be able to buy things in our choice of dimensions, at least most of the time.

I bought a DeWalt track saw because it was about half as expensive (with a 59 inch and 102 inch track), the depth scale reads distance below the track, and in inches.  Imperial was not all the reason but it was part of it.  If the Festool had been the less expensive choice, I might have gone that way and lived with it (or used the stick on scale).  But it wasn't. 

My point is just that Americans are not going to willingly convert to metric to make other countries happy.  There isn't really anything in it for us.  If it saves money, we can convert for individual items.  But I don't see everything converting.  But maybe gradually over several generations.

But it is not correct to say metric is the system of science.  A lot of very serious science is still in imperial units. 

 

[McNally Family]

There seem to be a lot of people claiming that metric is the measurement system of science.  I am an engineer working in the nuclear power field.  All our designs at least start out imperial.  We will convert if that's what the customer wants but we design in inches and feet.  We do measure uranium in KgU, however, kilograms.  But we measure uranium in pounds.  I don't think you can get too much more serious science than the nuclear field and we are mostly imperial.  But we have facilities in Europe and Japan and if they design the product, the base is metric. 

Any engineer can do the conversions and I can at least remember the mm to inch conversion and do it simply in my head.  But if you tell me something is 1000mm by 2000mm, until I convert it, I have no idea what size that is.  If you say it is 40 by 80 inches, I know.  That simple issue is why people in the U. S. do not want to convert.  A generation of people have to spend years doing mental conversions.  For no net benefit.  We are plenty large enough economically to be able to buy things in our choice of dimensions, at least most of the time.

I bought a DeWalt track saw because it was about half as expensive (with a 59 inch and 102 inch track), the depth scale reads distance below the track, and in inches.  Imperial was not all the reason but it was part of it.  If the Festool had been the less expensive choice, I might have gone that way and lived with it (or used the stick on scale).  But it wasn't. 

My point is just that Americans are not going to willingly convert to metric to make other countries happy.  There isn't really anything in it for us.  If it saves money, we can convert for individual items.  But I don't see everything converting.  But maybe gradually over several generations.

But it is not correct to say metric is the system of science.  A lot of very serious science is still in imperial units.

Here is a government document related to certain aspects of a nuclear plant development.  Notice they list everything in metric, then in parentheses, convert to imperial for those who still think in imperial, as you said you do.  I suppose it makes it easier for those who are not fluent in metric to visualize numbers in imperial, as you said you can.
http://www.nrc.gov/docs/ML1430/ML14309A463.pdf

 

[Cheese]

I agree with [member=45813]JimD[/member] 100%.
I worked in the semiconductor field as a project engineer for over 30 years. Everything I designed was in imperial units. The only group that wanted me to dual dimension a design were the Japanese. All other customers were fine with imperial dimensions, this included customers from Germany, France, Ireland, Spain and China.  [eek]

 

[Holmz]

Well EV is metric, and the science is metric.
You guys are talking about engineering and manufacturing.

Wood working also not science... it is more engineering/manufacturing.

However it does not matter what units one cuts their wood to. Pick one, or create a new one if one wants...
Thumb-widths and foot-length are easy if one desires to use a rule of thumb, and generally put their best foot forward.

 

[Cheese]

[member=40772]Holmz[/member] ,
You're funny, I rather like the create a new unit of measurement statement. It's all relative...and in the end, das macht nichts.

 

[Steve-Rice]

I'm with Holmz on this one.  [smile]

 

[TylerC]

We have an important update in the imperial vs metric discussion. A select number of Festool tools and accessories will be moving to imperial in North America next month.
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/festool-is-(partially)-moving-to-imperial-in-north-america
http://blog.festoolusa.com/2016/06/20/festool-will-begin-offering-imperial-scale-tools/

 

[grbmds]

I still don't understand why so much discussion about this. I'm with [member=40772]Holmz[/member]. Use what you are used to, what you are comfortable with, and, where possible, use story sticks or stops to make repetitive cuts so that everything matches.

I personally have learned the common conversions to metric so that I don't cut too deep into my MFT and for when I sometimes and using a metric measurement helps me center something. Other than that I just use what I'm used to and have been using my whole life; imperial. However, there is no magic to imperial. It's just what I've used since I began woodworking.

 

[fidelfs]

Can you count how many cents in a dollar?

Yes, then you can use metric.  1 dollar = 100 cents. = 10 dimes = 20 nickels, etc.
                                            1 meter = 100 cm    = 1000 mm = 10 decimeters (1 decimiter = 10 cm = 100 mm).

No, I don't believe you.

 

[Patrick Cox]

I still don't understand why so much discussion about this. I'm with [member=40772]Holmz[/member]. Use what you are used to, what you are comfortable with, and, where possible, use story sticks or stops to make repetitive cuts so that everything matches.

I personally have learned the common conversions to metric so that I don't cut too deep into my MFT and for when I sometimes and using a metric measurement helps me center something. Other than that I just use what I'm used to and have been using my whole life; imperial. However, there is no magic to imperial. It's just what I've used since I began woodworking.

Hi,
Thanks for your comments.  I understand your point about using what you are used to and what you know, but really, I don't think that concept necessarily applies here because of the need to work in small fractions when using imperial for woodworking.  If all measurements were in whole inches or even let's say 1/2 or 1/4 inches, I could see that.  But for woodworking you may find yourself needing to add or subtract 16ths, 32nds...etc as either fractions with different denominators or mixed fractions...etc  And most people who have grown up using the imperial system aren't necessarily or even likely used to working in these measurements.  I mean, sure, I can figure out the ultimate measurement when I need to add 4 3/16 to 3 5/32 or something similar, but my point is that a working knowledge of imperial won't necessarily create much of an advantage for imperial over metric, and therefore the decision is not so cut and dry.

Pat

 

[grbmds]

I still don't understand why so much discussion about this. I'm with [member=40772]Holmz[/member]. Use what you are used to, what you are comfortable with, and, where possible, use story sticks or stops to make repetitive cuts so that everything matches.

I personally have learned the common conversions to metric so that I don't cut too deep into my MFT and for when I sometimes and using a metric measurement helps me center something. Other than that I just use what I'm used to and have been using my whole life; imperial. However, there is no magic to imperial. It's just what I've used since I began woodworking.

Hi,
Thanks for your comments.  I understand your point about using what you are used to and what you know, but really, I don't think that concept necessarily applies here because of the need to work in small fractions when using imperial for woodworking.  If all measurements were in whole inches or even let's say 1/2 or 1/4 inches, I could see that.  But for woodworking you may find yourself needing to add or subtract 16ths, 32nds...etc as either fractions with different denominators or mixed fractions...etc  And most people who have grown up using the imperial system aren't necessarily or even likely used to working in these measurements.  I mean, sure, I can figure out the ultimate measurement when I need to add 4 3/16 to 3 5/32 or something similar, but my point is that a working knowledge of imperial won't necessarily create much of an advantage for imperial over metric, and therefore the decision is not so cut and dry.

Pat

Sure it applies. The whole thing is a lot of discussion over nothing; always has been.

 

[Holmz]

...
But for woodworking you may find yourself needing to add or subtract 16ths, 32nds...etc as either fractions with different denominators or mixed fractions...etc  And most people who have grown up using the imperial system aren't necessarily or even likely used to working in these measurements.  I mean, sure, I can figure out the ultimate measurement when I need to add 4 3/16 to 3 5/32 or something similar, but my point is that a working knowledge of imperial won't necessarily create much of an advantage for imperial over metric, and therefore the decision is not so cut and dry.

4-3/16 is 4-6/32 or 4.1875"
3-5/32 is                3.25 + 0.03125"
So it is 7-11/32  , or just do the decimal.
(I was a machinist once do these fractions are mostly momrized, but the odd /32 and /64 we never did much)

Maybe you are talking yourself into metric?

I am capable of adding metric wrong and getting a perfect cut in the wrong place.
One generally needs a sharp pencil or a calculator, and double checked measurements no matter what they do unless it is directly from a stick.

 

[JimD]

There seem to be a lot of people claiming that metric is the measurement system of science.  I am an engineer working in the nuclear power field.  All our designs at least start out imperial.  We will convert if that's what the customer wants but we design in inches and feet.  We do measure uranium in KgU, however, kilograms.  But we measure uranium in pounds.  I don't think you can get too much more serious science than the nuclear field and we are mostly imperial.  But we have facilities in Europe and Japan and if they design the product, the base is metric. 

Any engineer can do the conversions and I can at least remember the mm to inch conversion and do it simply in my head.  But if you tell me something is 1000mm by 2000mm, until I convert it, I have no idea what size that is.  If you say it is 40 by 80 inches, I know.  That simple issue is why people in the U. S. do not want to convert.  A generation of people have to spend years doing mental conversions.  For no net benefit.  We are plenty large enough economically to be able to buy things in our choice of dimensions, at least most of the time.

I bought a DeWalt track saw because it was about half as expensive (with a 59 inch and 102 inch track), the depth scale reads distance below the track, and in inches.  Imperial was not all the reason but it was part of it.  If the Festool had been the less expensive choice, I might have gone that way and lived with it (or used the stick on scale).  But it wasn't. 

My point is just that Americans are not going to willingly convert to metric to make other countries happy.  There isn't really anything in it for us.  If it saves money, we can convert for individual items.  But I don't see everything converting.  But maybe gradually over several generations.

But it is not correct to say metric is the system of science.  A lot of very serious science is still in imperial units.

Here is a government document related to certain aspects of a nuclear plant development.  Notice they list everything in metric, then in parentheses, convert to imperial for those who still think in imperial, as you said you do.  I suppose it makes it easier for those who are not fluent in metric to visualize numbers in imperial, as you said you can.
http://www.nrc.gov/docs/ML1430/ML14309A463.pdf

You may not realize it but the document you posted was created by the licensee, the Fermi plant.  They can describe their plant in metric if they want to.  They used dual units which would be expected if you want to use metric at all.  The NRC normally doesn't send things out in metric but you can get documents off their website that were created by their licensees and there is some variability in them - with respect to units of measure and a lot of other things.  When we send drawings to a supplier or a customer, they are dimensioned in imperial.  Or they are dual dimensioned.  They are not dimensioned solely in metric unless it is something for a European customer.

My point is only that imperial is no less "scientific" than metric.  Which one you use is just a preference thing.  That is true in science, engineering, and woodworking.