Improving My Dust Extraction Process

[SoonerFan]

Since retiring last year I have spent lots more time in the shop.  Over the same time I have steadily increased my usage of rough sawn lumber.  One of the outcomes as you might guess is producing a great deal more dust.  I plan to make some updates to improve dust extraction after I finish a couple projects.  I work like some input. 

I have a JCDC-2 (230V / 2 HP) dust collector.  To date I have a couple flexible hoses and roll the dust collector around the shop as needed.  I want to use fixed tubes, blast gates to direct air flow, drops for my table saw, planner, jointer, band saw, router table and CNC.  This will allow me to make the dust collector location permanent.  Once in its permanent location, I plan to enclose it to reduce noise. 

For those of you that have fixed dust collection tubes, gates, etc.:

1.  What size and type of tubes did you buy?  What blast gates and equipment to connect the individual machine drops did you use?  Why did you choose what you did? 

2.  What would you suggest as the longest run my 2HP collector can support?

3.  Was there any YouTube videos, forums, or information sources you used which were especially helpful?

4.  How does your design handle static electricity?

As I have started my research I have reviewed lots of options with many different price points.  Figured would be good to ask for advice from those that have been down this road before me.

For mobile dust extractors I have a CT MIDI (dedicated to my Kapex) and a CT 36.  I am planning to switch both to the reusable long life bags to round out my improved dust collection.

 

[rvieceli]

[member=28223]SoonerFan[/member] I have that same dust collector and use it with a flex hose that can be moved to a single machine. while I mostly like the unit, I really don't think it has enough oomph for a series of static drops and longer runs. I believe to do what you want and be happy with the results you'll need to upgrade that unit. Perhaps dedicate it to the CNC. Others may feel differently.

On the longlife bags, consider that you have to open the bag up and then dispose of the dust. With the single use bags your collected dust is contained until disposed of.

Ron

 

[ChuckM]

I have seen clean and fancy central dust collection systems using 4" or 6" pipes -- on YouTube, but I have never come across one in person that really sucks great. The two ducting systems (one industrial system for a school workshop and one rated 5HP with 4 or 5 drops and long runs) offered only mediocre performance when I used them, far far worse than what my home shop that is equipped with no pipes can deliver (1HP, shop vacs/dust deputy, and CT15, all placed next or close to the machines concerned). If blastgates are not automated from day 1, they will prove VERY frustrating down the road.

A pipe-based system does look "sexy," but if not done right, it'd be more a cosmetic upgrade.

 

[squall_line]

[member=28223]SoonerFan[/member]
On the longlife bags, consider that you have to open the bag up and then dispose of the dust. With the single use bags your collected dust is contained until disposed of.

Also consider the price.

If you are recently retired, how many bags do you fill and how many would it take to match the price of the reusable bag?  Will that cost outlive your remaining shop time?

A cyclone or other separator would probably be a better investment in terms of saving bags and keeping cleanup semi low-hassle.

 

[Mini Me]

This question and all the answers can be answeres by reading the links I have provided to the dust extraction forum in the Australian WW forum in the last few days.

The simplest answer to do the job properly is a 5hp cyclone with a 15" impeller and 6" ducting. I sold hundreds of Clearvues and every one of the owners reckons it works. 99.9% of YT videos can be ignored and not one single video does the job properly. NEVER use 4" pipe and ALWAYS run 6" pipe to the machine and open the ports to 6" as well. Use rocking blast gates for the best design that gives no problems and read the link I am posting once again. Other than Clearvue Oneida is an option for American WW's but we don't get their products here that are equivalent to Clearvue so I have no experience with what they sell. Teh reason to not use 4" is that it simply cannot flow enough air at the low pressures ducted systems operate at and any reduction in the system restricts air flow in the entire duct servicing that machine.

https://www.woodworkforums.com/f200

 

[Crazyraceguy]

[member=58818]Mini Me[/member] is right. There is a huge difference between small (high static pressure) extractors and large (high volume) dust collectors.
The small ones "feel" powerful because they suck so hard, while the larger ones move a lot of air. This is where the problem comes in. If you choke down a big dust collector with smaller diameter is "seems like it should speed up the air, but it really doesn't. What happens is you create a vacuum behind it. I know that sounds dumb, vacuum is the point, but it doesn't increase the speed of the air (or the suction)
Take a simple box fan, for example, and build a series of tubes tapering down to 4" and see how much it flows. It will turn out to be very little, because that type of fan is very "loose". It is not a positive displacement type pump, so the air just gets beat-up, swirling in circles, and not much happens.
You can easily tell when you are pulling a vacuum in your dust collector system by looking it at a section of flex hose. If it tries to contract, you are restricting its flow, rather than allowing it to flow(moving chips with it)
As Mini Me said, use the 6" tubing where you can, it keeps the air flow going.
The dust collector tubing in the shop where I work is something like 28"-30" as it goes out of the building. I don't remember exactly? When it gets to my end of the building (200 feet away) it is still 10".
There are two open ends on the main ducts, which are used to regulate (equalize) the pressure.
One of those open 10" ports is right above my miter saw station. It has a blast gate to aid in the tuning.

 

[Hipplewm]

I have 3 setups in my shop -
Large 6" cyclone with a 2HP blower - mainly for planer, table saw, router table bandsaw etc - stuff that makes chips and flow > suction
small cyclone hooked to a shop vac - mainly smaller chip stuff - pocket holes, joiner, mitre saw
festool CT - sanding, domino and biscuits

I got by with the small cyclone and shop vac for a while, but the chips would overwhelm the small cyclone and sanding dust would bypass the cyclone and clog the filter - so I put a bag in the shop vac, but this killed performance so much that it made doing any task bad.

If I had to do it over, I would have started with the Festool CT and connect in a small cyclone when needed - and if you can't afford a CT initially start with a shop vac until that gets on your nerves and then by a CT.

Once you can afford a planer and cabinet table saw though, you will have to buy something to play with those big toys.

Your CT36 could fill in for my shop vac and cyclone combo easily - so your setup is very similar to mine

I used the Dust Deputy XL with 6" to the dust collector and 5" to 4" PVC for runs.  I have zero issues but I NEVER reduce below 4" if so, it becomes worthless - but anything that needs 2" hook to the CT 36.  This setup pulls flow even while using the DeWalt 735, which has a very powerful blower.  I also use a 4"/3" combo for the table saw with overarm dust extraction with zero issues and a 4"/2.5" combo for router table with no issues.
I use the 5" aluminum blast gates and 4" PVC (the drain kind that is super thin, fit snugly inside with just a strip of duct tape - I generally put in a self tapping screw to hold it.  I, personally, don't worry about small air leaks as even at 4" my system can flow higher, so I leave it because I helps efficiency.  I also do not have a heated or cooled shop, so I exhaust outside with ZERO restrictions, so my effeciency is much higher than going thru a hepa or some cloth bag.

 

[Mini Me]

1000 CFM through the duct is considered to be the minimum flow rate for effective DUST collection in a ducted system. To achieve that a 15" impeller is needed and to drive that a bit more than 4hp is needed so a 5hp does the job best. If a customer rang me with questions I used to quote those numbers knowing it works and he or she would be happy with the result. A 14" impeller will do about 1000CFM if the unit is modified and a lesser flow capacity will collect the debris produced by the machine.

 

[SoonerFan]

Lots of good information for me to consider.  As usual, I appreciate the input.  Thanks for taking time to reply.

 

[Mini Me]

I have seen clean and fancy central dust collection systems using 4" or 6" pipes -- on YouTube, but I have never come across one in person that really sucks great. The two ducting systems (one industrial system for a school workshop and one rated 5HP with 4 or 5 drops and long runs) offered only mediocre performance when I used them, far far worse than what my home shop that is equipped with no pipes can deliver (1HP, shop vacs/dust deputy, and CT15, all placed next or close to the machines concerned). If blastgates are not automated from day 1, they will prove VERY frustrating down the road.

A pipe-based system does look "sexy," but if not done right, it'd be more a cosmetic upgrade.

Chuck, every ducted system I have been involved in works great but I have seen some commercial systems that don't work and wasted a lot of money because of bad design. I could rabbit on about design and the rip offs in the hobby end of the industry but I would bore you all and it would go on for weeks or more. Read the information in the linked forum and you will see all the information you will ever need on dust extraction. There are two parts to dust extraction, the first is having enough air flow to collect the sub micron dust and the usual one is collecting some of the debris from machines and very little of the aforementioned dust.

Here is a link to a Clearvue system showing how strong the air flow is

The disappearing Tape

 

[ChuckM]

Not knowledgeable enough on the topic, I can't say if design contributed to the poor performance of the two ducting systems that I've had experience with. But for the smaller system (5HP), the lack of automated blast gates meant that several times in use, I found people forgetting to close the gates after use (who would actually walk around and check every gate (5 of them installed all over the place in a 500-ish sq ft shop) before beginning working?). Another issue is maintenance. I wonder how often the bags are checked for fullness as the unit (90 dB?) is enclosed and installed outside the shop for noise control reason.

So design is one thing, but in practice, many things can cause a well-designed system to perform below its spec. I'm sure the school workshop dust collection system met the provincial requirements for schools, and an acceptance test was done when it was delivered. However, after years of its operation, when I used it, I wasn't impressed. At least that was so when I compared it to my simple, poor-man set-up in my shop.

If I were going to install a dust-based dust collection system, I'd go all the way and include all the necessary automation features. A half-baked solution would be worse for me than having individual dust collection systems for a machine or group of machines.

No matter what dust collection system one has or plans to install, I strongly recommend putting an air quality monitor in the shop so you know and not what you think how well your system is serving you.

By the way, the run seen in the tape measure video is really short compared to those mounted for the systems I talked about. I suppose the longer the run, the bigger the drop in suction at the port end.

Edit: I found a pic of the shop where the 5HP dc is used. I was jointing that board. I think my memory of 5 drops is incorrect as the pic already shows 3 there. I also think 7 to 8 drops might be the actual case, and the shop, with a 2-story high ceiling, might be 900 - 1200 sq ft in size.

[attachimg=1]

A photo showing one side (about 60%) of the school shop (it has at least two SawStop ICSs, but it could be three and a CNC station nearby):

[attachimg=2]

 

[mcfal12]

If I ever have a workshop (not my small 1 car garage that has to fit my car, storage and everything else) big enough to have a central dust collector, I'm putting all the piping underground. Sure that will be expense and harder to do. Sure it makes future modifications to the shop more cumbersome. Sure it makes cleaning out the pipes if there is a jam more difficult. IDC! Everyone always has a mess of hose and pipes all over their shop creating obstructions (either overhead, on the wall or in the middle of the airspace). Plus I've never seen that done and I want to revolutionize how it's done. My own personal claim to fame

As they say, there is truth in jest so..... truthfully, I want to have the space to be worried about such a thing. I envy all the shop owners out there. Feel free to leave constructive feedback on what other reasons this would be such a bad idea 

 

[jeffinsgf]

If I ever have a workshop (not my small 1 car garage that has to fit my car, storage and everything else) big enough to have a central dust collector, I'm putting all the piping underground. Sure that will be expense and harder to do. Sure it makes future modifications to the shop more cumbersome. Sure it makes cleaning out the pipes if there is a jam more difficult. IDC! Everyone always has a mess of hose and pipes all over their shop creating obstructions (either overhead, on the wall or in the middle of the airspace). Plus I've never seen that done and I want to revolutionize how it's done. My own personal claim to fame

As they say, there is truth in jest so..... truthfully, I want to have the space to be worried about such a thing. I envy all the shop owners out there. Feel free to leave constructive feedback on what other reasons this would be such a bad idea 

My boss did just that for the same reasons. His shop floor is on 2x8 joists with ducting in the floor and the boards over the ducts are screwed down rather than nailed.

 

[jeffinsgf]

I have seen so many failed central systems that I have convinced myself it's a bad idea for my shop. Instead, I have a bunch of second hand small collectors, each of which serves one or two machines. I'm confident my investment is lower and my efficiency is higher.

Also, if you're going to build a central system, be sure your machines are in their permanent, ideal position. I rearrange the shop every time I think I have a better idea for work flow. If I had to tear out and re-plumb a central system every time I shuffled the machines, I'd be unhappy.

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

I'm not sure I'd call it a "big" system, but I've been really happy with my RL-160 collector, paired with Nordfab 6" quick-clamp ducting suspended with the Gripple straps. The nice thing about the RL-160 is that it's on wheels, so it's easy to move if/when you reconfigure the shop. Same goes for the quick-clamp ductwork, easy to set-up/take-down. I've reconfigured my shop a half dozen times at this point, and the above equipment makes it as painless as one could hope for....

 

[mcfal12]

If I ever have a workshop (not my small 1 car garage that has to fit my car, storage and everything else) big enough to have a central dust collector, I'm putting all the piping underground. Sure that will be expense and harder to do. Sure it makes future modifications to the shop more cumbersome. Sure it makes cleaning out the pipes if there is a jam more difficult. IDC! Everyone always has a mess of hose and pipes all over their shop creating obstructions (either overhead, on the wall or in the middle of the airspace). Plus I've never seen that done and I want to revolutionize how it's done. My own personal claim to fame

As they say, there is truth in jest so..... truthfully, I want to have the space to be worried about such a thing. I envy all the shop owners out there. Feel free to leave constructive feedback on what other reasons this would be such a bad idea 

My boss did just that for the same reasons. His shop floor is on 2x8 joists with ducting in the floor and the boards over the ducts are screwed down rather than nailed.

Building on the idea Jeff posted, put the pipe in a trench with a removable cover (steel plates, flooring, etc) and then the "permanency of the pipe being underground is somewhat mitigated.

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.I'm confident my investment is lower and my efficiency is higher.
Snip.

So am I with a similar approach like yours.

SawStop PCS with the dust collection blade guard -- 1HP + 1 shop Vac/HEPA filter ----> 99%+
Kapex -- 36mm hose +shop vac/HEPA filter + DD ------>90%
Sanding and Drilling stations -- shop vac/HEPA filter + DD + hose/Drilldado -------->90% -- 100% (chips)
Others (DF500, PRO 5, routers etc.) -- CT15 ------> 90% - 100%

The only Achilles' heels in my shop are the bandsaw and Ridgid thickness planer. I'm not worried about the planer's chips, but I'm still trying to improve the dust collection for the bandsaw.

And I have an air quality monitor to tell me if and when I should turn on the air filtration systems (2), too (rarely these days).

 

[ChuckM]

I'm not sure I'd call it a "big" system, but I've been really happy with my RL-160 collector, paired with Nordfab 6" quick-clamp ducting suspended with the Gripple straps. The nice thing about the RL-160 is that it's on wheels, so it's easy to move if/when you reconfigure the shop. Same goes for the quick-clamp ductwork, easy to set-up/take-down. I've reconfigured my shop a half dozen times at this point, and the above equipment makes it as painless as one could hope for....

Any pics to show your set-up?

 

[Hipplewm]

I have seen so many failed central systems that I have convinced myself it's a bad idea for my shop. Instead, I have a bunch of second hand small collectors, each of which serves one or two machines. I'm confident my investment is lower and my efficiency is higher.

Also, if you're going to build a central system, be sure your machines are in their permanent, ideal position. I rearrange the shop every time I think I have a better idea for work flow. If I had to tear out and re-plumb a central system every time I shuffled the machines, I'd be unhappy.

This applies as he already has most everything to make it work, you just have to divide it up and make sure the right DC is connected to the right equipment

 

[Hipplewm]

5HP is a BIG motor and will need 220v - which a LOT of US shops won't have without a fair amount of expense. 

2HP dust collector set up properly with non restricting outputs are just fine for 95% of non production shops, especially if you have dust extractors for smaller tools.