In the shop what is the REAL difference between regular and Anti-static Hoses

[nickao]

Okay guys I have used the anti static hoes for almost two months now.

I stepped on one AS hose ONCE and it is permanently crushed. I still prefer the hoses that come standard with the Fein. They are more durable and I have backed over them with my car and they are not permanently dented like the Festool hose is from just stepping on  it. 

Please tell me how they are better in real shop applications, not theoretical and why I should keep purchasing them.
In the real world I have noticed no difference at all. The only thing I notice different is when I use all anti static they shock the crap out of me , they are not as flexible as the non AS hoses and they are a cool green color..

I am asking because I am going to purchase a lot of new hoses soon and was thinking just to go with the regular NON-anti static to save a ton of money.

I thought the people here on the forum could tell me their experiences and why they are better. And I do not buy that explosion crap, so that will not convince me. With a 2 1/4" hose I just do not believe there is an issue. Even 4" PVC is safe for the small home shop. Above that size yes, I agree metal(or anti static)is better, but the AS hoses DO NOT act like my metal piping. The metal piping in my shop has yet to shock me ever.

I want to buy the AS, but I just can not figure out why I do or should. Maybe I just like the Green.

Nickao

 

[merklebob]

if given the choice, i would get the anit static hose.  the static discharge can actually blow up the dust collection system.  if your in mid america you know about grain elevator blowing up.  its the same issue.  how often does it happen is a low % but the one couls be you. 

 

[joraft]

... In the real world I have noticed no difference at all. The only thing I notice different is when I use all anti static they shock the crap out of me , they are not as flexible as the non AS hoses and they are a cool green color..

... And I do not buy that explosion crap, so that will not convince me.

Nick, in a dust collection system like the Festool (or Fein) the risk of fire or explosion is slim to none. The only advantage that anti-static hoses are SUPPOSED to give is that they reduce the chance getting zapped. If you're still getting shocked, then the static electricity is still not finding its way to ground for some reason, so it chooses you for the trip.

The AS hoses are more expensive because they either have a wire embedded in them, or a special electricity conductiing polymer added to the hose material. Either one can make them less flexible.

John

 

[joraft]

... how often does it happen is a low % but the one could be you.
 

According to every study I've read that percentage would be zero. There has NEVER been a reported case of fire or explosion from static electricity in a home based wood dust collection system.

John

 

[joraft]

... Metal sparks can start a fire if it gets in the dust stream, but not an explosion.  I would not cut metal with the Vacs without an arrester, I think Festool offers one.

Again, the risk has proven to be minimal. Sparks in the air stream of a dust collection system tend to cool very fast, so they are short lived. There have been some reports of spark fires that start in the lower housings of bands saws, and then move on into the dust collector. But in those cases the cause is generally a heavy build up of dust just below the table where the sparks can hit it directly, which really comes under the heading of poor maintenance.

John

 

[pteubel]

I have a couple Fein hoses and when I use them to vacuum up dust, I *DO* get shocked...repeatedly. Never with the Fes AS hoses though. Of course, it only happens in the winter when the RH is low. I just live with it.

FYI: I run a 3hp cyclone via 6" PVC hard piped thru my shop and that's not grounded either. Two factors are needed to create an environment for a DC explosion: massive actual CFM (not "rated" CFM) and dust in such volumes that a single consumer machine is incapable of producing (including a 22" drum sander).

 

[joraft]

FYI: I run a 3hp cyclone via 6" PVC hard piped thru my shop and that's not grounded either.

It's important to note that you cannot actually "ground" PVC, or the material of a vacuum hose. You can only run some type of conductor inside it (or embedded in it) that will pick up the static charge, which will stay in that conductor unless IT is grounded. This charge buildup can be fairly high in voltage, but low in amperage. One quick zap to your body, and the full charge is drained off, until it builds up again.

The hose in the Festool system is connected at both ends by a non-conductive material, so where can the charge go? If shocks are a big problem you might try a metal clamp around the end closest to the vacuum with a wire that runs to a metal pipe or eletrical conduit. You can't ground to the tool housing because Festool tools are double insulated and the housings are not connected to the ground in your electrical system.

John

 

[joraft]

Still I would not worry, as you say the statistics indicate it is very low that it will happen...

Actually, this was the only thing on the report when my house burned down ...

Nick, your house burning down was certainly no joke, but seeing these two sentences in the same post did make me chuckle. 

John

 

[jonny round boy]

I thought that the main advantage was that the AS hoses stop the very fine dust caused by fine sanding from clinging (via static) to the hose?

That's the only thing I can see as an advantage, apart from stopping the occasional static shock.

Nick, if you are still getting shocks with the AS hoses, then there's obviously a break in the grounding of your system somewhere...

 

[tvgordon]

Nick,

I've never been shocked by the Festool hoses (except at the price, ha, ha  ;D).

However, I have a Sears wet-dry vac and a Delta dust collector that shock the crap out of me in the winter.  In my crowded shop it doesn't take much for me to back against the bandsaw or tablesaw while vacuuming and get zapped.

Whether or not they are worth the extra money would be up to you.  I don't understand why you would have static electricity build up in anti-static hoses.

Tom.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Yes, John I agree on all accounts and it is driving me crazy that I get shocked. But it happens with different hoses on two different CT 33 and my ground for the house is rock solid.

Anyone else getting zapped? I purchased the two Ct 33 units a month apart from different suppliers so I doubt they are malfunctioning.

I never have gotten zapped from the Fein NON AS or even my Rigid Non AS hose, so I never understood the benefit.

I love that green though.

Nick

Very weird Nick, the exact opposite of my experience.

 

[Michael Kellough]

This is only slightly related but I wonder if there is some special AS design in Festool's sanders?

Before Festool I used only Bosch sanders and still use a few because they still work well. I use them with Festool vacs and AS hoses and even though the dust collection is more than sufficient to keep the air clean there is more dust stuck to the surface of the wood than with an equal sized Festool sander even after vacuuming with a brush.

It seems like a static charge may be produced on the wood or dust that makes it stick. I don't see this happening with the Festool sander. Could it be?

 

[danrush]

I have both the anti-static (green) and non-anti-static (grey) hoses.  There is a noticable buid-up of dust on the non-AS hose even when just cutting ply with the ts55.  Never even a spec with the AS hose.  The non AS is now relegated to household work with the mini.  

I have experienced some minor shocks with the non AS, even when just vacuuming the house; never with the green AS hose.  The only time I experienced any static shock with the AS hose, I had it hooked up to my new shop built boom (PVC)
As soon as I added a copper wire to the PVC, no more shocking.  The rubber connectors on the hose must have some conductivity.  But I don't know for sure, just a guess.

I will always buy the green AS hoses now.

Dan

 

[joraft]

I have both the anti-static (green) and non-anti-static (grey) hoses.  

... The rubber connectors on the hose must have some conductivity.

Dan, I've checked the AS hose on my CT33 and I can see no way that the static electricity can be drained to a ground. Since the static is caused by the friction of the air and particles rushing through the hose, I'm wondering if the difference in hoses is the surface of the lining. I'm wondering if the AS hose is lined with some kind of very slippery material to reduce the friction. I don't have both types of hoses, so I can't compare.

If that were the case, it could also explain why some guys are getting different results. The volume, type, and size of particles could make a difference in the amount of friction (and therefore static). If a hose sends all static to ground, the type of particles would make no difference.

John

 

[danrush]

I just took a quick look at my AS and non AS hoses.  ( please keep in mind I'm not as technically minded as most here) 

The interior surface of the AS hose does appear to be "smoother" or "slicker" than the non AS hose.  That would cut down on the generation of static charges, but would it eliminate them?

The AS hose is noticably stiffer than the non AS hose.  I think it may be a combination of the interior coating and possibly heavier wire coiled around the hose.  (Nick, if you don't like the kinks with a green hose, DON'T get the non AS hose, it kinks much more easily)

Here's where I'm out of my element:  I still think there must be some conductivity in the "rubber" hose connectors.  As soon as I made a positive connection with copper wire between the AS hose and the CT22 through about 20lf PVC, the static stopped.  Sorry no pics, but I simply fed a wire through the PVC and bent it over the end to make contact with the hose connectors.  Hope thet makes sense.

Dan

 

[Forrest Anderson]

The Festool USA website has a FAQ Database, and there seem to be more questions (and answers!) every time I look at it.

There is a collection of FAQs about dust extraction, and there is some information about anti-static hoses there. For example:

---------------
Question :
Does it make sense to use the Festool antistatic hose with another brand of dust extractor, or should I purchase the regular, non-antistatic hose?
 
Answer :
What makes an antistatic hose antistatic is that it conducts static electricity to ground. Festool antistatic hoses have no visible electric leads; the high-carbon plastic they are made from conducts high voltage. The tool is grounded by way of the hose, through dust extractor, to the ground where it is plugged. If there is an open ground where the dust extractor is plugged, there is still the possibility of electric shock from the high voltage static charge produced by moving dust.

Some dust extraction systems have a visible copper lead where you attach the hose. In that case, the conductive Festool antistatic hose will work to ground the tool to that dust extraction system. The ground must be continuous however for the system to work. The outlet it?s plugged into must be grounded for the system to be antistatic.

Shop vacs are generally not antistatic. If you are using your Festool with a standard shop vac or another brand of dust extractor that is not antistatic then there is no need to purchase an antistatic hose, it won?t eliminate static charge.
------------------

and

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Question :
Why does my D27 antistatic hose seem stiff and tend to curl up?
 
Answer :
All thermal formable materials like plastics have ?memory?, they tend to retain their shape. Like your garden hose, unless you warm it, it will tend to coil in the same diameter that it came. If you warm your hose up by simply laying it in the sun, you can retrain it or straighten it out.

The conductive carbon used in the Festool antistatic hose is partly what makes it stiff. The non-antistatic hose is more flexible but not suggested for sanding due to the static charge generated by moving dust.

The Boom Arm attachment (item 492753) provides the ideal solution for hose snags. With the hose up off of the floor, it?s no longer a trip hazard, and more maneuverable. Working is easier, with fewer restrictions. Plus your hose won?t get hung up on your work piece.
-------------------

The FAQ database is well worth a look, and it's almost guaranteed that you'll find something that you never knew before!

Forrest

 

[danrush]

Come on Forrest, It's more fun to p*** in the wind  

Thanks, I need to re-learn my research skills. (but I'm that guy who throws out the manual with the packaging)
Dan

 

[joraft]

Thanks, Forrest, that's just the information we were looking for. I knew that FAQ was there but I didn't think of looking there. Good thing you dropped by. 

It makes sense, the CT33 does have a three prong plug even though it is double insulated, so the sole purpose of that ground prong must be for the AS hose. I did check my AS hose with an ohm meter and got no reading. The hose (and connectors) must be composed with conductive polymer in the plastic.

Anyone still getting shocked with an AS hose should check the ground on their outlet. Many times two prong outlets are replaced with three prong sockets, even though there may be no ground circuit in the house (common in houses 40 or 50 years old). This is a very dangerous situation because it allows a three prong tool or appliance to be pluuged in but gives no protection should a short develop. Home depot sells a tester for this very purpose.

John

 

[danrush]

Nick,

My guess, and I stress GUESS, is.. would not a drum sander generate more static electricity than a festool sander?  ( or saw, etc)  Do you experience shocks from Festools used with the vac?  Maybe the volume of static electric charge is too much for the AS hose to handle as designed for use with integrated tools.

Or, this may just an example of a carpenter trying to play engineer...

I do prefer the AS hoses.. 

1. less dust collecting on the hose itself.
2. less "kinking" of the hose.
3. less (much less) static shock.

for what it's worth, Dan

 

[pteubel]

Yes Peter I agree, but above 4" the odds to go up. I would not worry and you saved loads by not getting the metal piping, that almost put me in the poor house!

I think environmental factors are an issue and may be my problem. I will continue to monitor in the coming humid months around here.

So Peter do you think I should continue with the AS hoses?

Nickao

6" PVC isn't cheap ($32 for a T connector), but a local Lowes carries it (1.3 miles from my house). Shipping for metal DC ductwork was as much as the piping itself.

As far as YOUR experience goes, it seems like the AS hoses aren't doing much good in reducing the shocks when used with your drum sander. Perhaps it's just not designed to handle the amount of static charge being generated by the amount of dust you are extracting.