I've got a yen for these Japan chisels

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PreferrablyWood

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I've developing quite a collection of other handtools over the years parallel with my Festool setup. I've been gotten som waterstones in some different grits 220, 1000, 2000 and 6000, working on getting my Bahco chisels sharpened up, such hard steel really a chore, and the plastic handles actually smell bad, the Bachos som 15 years old I don't no if that has anything to do with the smell but I think it does, so as a result I've gone down the chisel rabbit hole, yes it has come this, I want to use them for fine cabinetry hand made joinery, full size doors, etc. So I feel it would be justified to get another set of decent chisels. So these are the ones I've decided on:http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=312_552_574_580

They are handmade, I think the design would be really useful as they allow flush paring with the added benefit of a shank that goes over from the flat neck to rounded to protect the work..

They cost around the same price as the Veritas bench chisels, but have something more... The Veritas bench chisels look sterile by comparison and that authentic feel of the Ouchi chisels has got me on the hook. Any one else see what I'm seeing?

 
Another aspect of those chisels compared to western chisels is that the blade sits well forward of the handle with a rather thin neck in-between which would allow easier access where working into tight places. They would seem to  be a type of paring chisel with a short handle. The small drawback might be uncomfortable use for push paring work instead of using a mallet as the the metal hoop might dig into the palm.

An added benefit is there are more sizes available and they are metric which is the system I use. They are darkly beautiful to my eye.
 
The hoops on Japanese bench chisels are there because they are designed to be struck with a mallet.  Japanese paring chisels do not have hoops, but tend to be more expensive than the bench chisels.  Don't use a mallet with a Japanese paring chisel.  So if you don't like the hoops for paring by hand, you have to double your chisel investment.

Some Japanese paring chisels are advertised with "ebony" handles.  The only Japanese "chisel" with an "ebony" handle that I have ever held (a yari ganna, a precursor of Japanese planes that looks more like a carving tool) actually had a wenge handle.  You definitely don't want to strike wenge so that it splinters, and then get a splinter when using it by hand.  And wenge splinters easily.

One of the reasons I like western chisels is the handle design - both LN and LV PMV-11 chisels can be struck lightly or used by hand, and at least the LN handles are easily replaceable.  I assume that Japanese chisel handles can easily be replaced, if you could get them.  I imagine that you would have to turn replacement handles yourself, while salvaging the ring from the original handle.  Yes, you can get a wicked sharp edge on a Japanese chisel that will last for ages, but I don't think they are as comfortable to use for long periods.  They are also more finicky to keep in good shape if you use them enough to wear the edge back.

Good chisels with phenolic handles work well too.  I have a set of old record chisels that I use quite a bit for less demanding jobs, and the handles on those have held up quite well to my mallet.  Of course, if you are using it with a framing hammer, all bets are off.  I did in a Craftsman chisel back in my framing days that way :).
 
I went out and splurged on a "wood is good" mallet with the polyurethane cushioning layer, so that means I could conceivably order the chisels in the link with the hoops unmounted. Then try them without hoops for a while. I'd have to soften the edges of the handle striking surface though.

I of course am interested and impressed by the Veritas bench chisels as I mention them in the original post, but in my opinion they are not true bevel edge chisels. More leaning towards being  a dovetail specific chisel which gives them an advantage as well. I'm  choosing a less acute  bevel for my main chisels and will perhaps later get 2 or 3 specific dovetail chisels for the limited amount of that type of cabinetry I will be doing. Ashly Iles chisels also have a similar  optimal form but somewhat shorter than the Veritas bench chisels which might be better for doing dovetails so I will consider those as well.

I've got 2 english pattern mortice chisels in the smaller sizes and one beefy two cherries 12mm mortice chisel for deep mortises, a set of Two Cherries butt chisels so I'm on the way to having a pretty complete set.

My shopping list  11 japanese chisels are:

Ouchi
Hira-maru oire-nomi are 9m 12mm 24mm and 30mm sizes.

Koyamichi
normal chisels in sized 3mm 6mm 18mm and 36mm. My reasoning her in these less often used sizes I don't need to invest the extra money in the speciel refinements of the Ouchi Hira-maru oire-nomi.

Koyamichi
Paring chisels 12mm, 21mm, 36mm.

I'm convinced about the quality of the tools here, these are not the toys for rich boys, but real tools used by craftsman everyday in Japan so performance and price are in a good balance.
 
I went in splurged on a wood is good mallet with the polymer layer, so that means I could conceivable order the chisels in the link with the hoops unmounted. Then try them without for a while.
Click to expand...

No. Japanese bench chisels are designed to be used with a gennou, which is a steel-headed hammer. Holding and tapping the end adds to precision. A soft headed mallet will not provide the ideal feedback, and a round mallet lacks precision.

The hoops are not set up for you when you purchase a Japanese bench chisel (incidentally, "dovetail" chisels are also bench chisels). The hoops need to be set below the wood at the end of the handle, and the end splayed over the hoop. This makes it more comfortable to push with the hand.

There are many, many makes of Japanese chisels. My recommendation for a decent price (but not cheap) with superior performance is the Koyamaichi range. Try Tools from Japan or Lee Valley.

Paring chisels, or slicks, come without hoops. The blades are thinner and the bevels are a lower 25 degrees (while the bench chisels are 30 degrees). Slicks are not to be hit - you will damage the blade!The good slocks have an offset handle, which makes it easier to hold the chisel lower to the work, and so reducing the cutting angle.

Regards from Perth

Derek
 
derekcohen said:
I went in splurged on a wood is good mallet with the polymer layer, so that means I could conceivable order the chisels in the link with the hoops unmounted. Then try them without for a while.
Click to expand...

No. Japanese bench chisels are designed to be used with a gennou, which is a steel-headed hammer. Holding and tapping the end adds to precision. A soft headed mallet will not provide the ideal feedback, and a round mallet lacks precision.

The hoops are not set up for you when you purchase a Japanese bench chisel (incidentally, "dovetail" chisels are also bench chisels). The hoops need to be set below the wood at the end of the handle, and the end splayed over the hoop. This makes it more comfortable to push with the hand.

There are many, many makes of Japanese chisels. My recommendation for a decent price (but not cheap) with superior performance is the Koyamaichi range. Try Tools from Japan or Lee Valley.

Paring chisels, or slicks, come without hoops. The blades are thinner and the bevels are a lower 25 degrees (while the bench chisels are 30 degrees). Slicks are not to be hit - you will damage the blade!The good slocks have an offset handle, which makes it easier to hold the chisel lower to the work, and so reducing the cutting angle.

Regards from Perth

Derek
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info, I'll try the mallet anyways it's quite heavy so probably would not use for more delicate work my wish to use the mallets is to reduce sharp attack sound of metal against metal thus keeping noise levels down, so will be willing to lose some of the feedback for that reason. For sure I'll be getting the  gennou's offered at Fine Tools.

I'm going for the Ouchi and Koyamachi chisels offered at Tools from Japan, as I find them competitively prised and good value for functionality.. I'm tuned into having to possibly set the hoops or at least adjust them..I'm going with gumi handles..
 
Hi PW

Get yourself a gennou. Or two even. I have 375gm for heavier work and 225gm for most bench work.

There is really no way that you will get the feel of a Japanese chisel using a round mallet, especially one with sorbathane.

You can pick up a gennou quite cheaply (although mine are not - the heads are custom, and required that I build the handles) ...

Gennou4_zpsk6e4mhdy.jpg


Gennou6_zpsf3loy3vb.jpg


The handles are curved deliberately. The heads are Tenryuu from Japan Tools (based in Australia).

Regards from Perth

Derek
 
In case you would like to see a comprehensive guide to tuning Japanese chisels, this video is excellent (as is the channel):

Never mind the funny translations - the images say it all.
 
Thanks for the article on the Genou Handle [member=4358]derekcohen[/member]

I'm trying to get around the idea of Japanese chisels and tools and their usage and have found a few things.

This video her has som Kanna,Ryoba and Chisel work.
 
More exploration of japan woodworking tools and techniques. This video shows joinery for the roof corner section.Getting lucky this evening:
 
[member=23193]PreferrablyWood[/member] and [member=4358]derekcohen[/member] , please stop... I can hardly take it.

The Haus-Boss found some Jetstar flights to Japan out of Cairns. We have a couple of days in Takayama.

Probably easiest to Get tools from the mob that Derek suggests, but I am getting a bit excited about seeing it first hand.
 
Holmz said:
[member=23193]PreferrablyWood[/member] and [member=4358]derekcohen[/member] , please stop... I can hardly take it.

The Haus-Boss found some Jetstar flights to Japan out of Cairns. We have a couple of days in Takayama.

Probably easiest to Get tools from the mob that Derek suggests, but I am getting a bit excited about seeing it first hand.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a good idea to get some first hand experience on the ground then. As to it being easy to get the tools sent from japan yes it might be if it's not speciel made but the ones I'm looking at made the slow way one at a time, so It is an excercise in patience, for me that's hard work. So I need to develop a Zen approach to waiting.. Though I did have to wait for the Festool HKC set version for 3 months.. And now again for some MFS VB 1000 profiles..
 
[member=23193]PreferrablyWood[/member] starting in Kyoto, and Takayama is reportedly an epicentre for woodwork...
So I am looking forward to it.

Those small hammers of [member=4358]derekcohen[/member] we stunning.
 
Can someone please post something that isn't going to cost me?  All kidding aside, and his was very informative. Nice article, as always, Derek. I was going to try making a mallet out of mesquite but maybe need to rethink.
 
I use a ball pein hammer with Japan chisels and also with some western style Barr chisels I prepared in the Japanese style by cutting off the ends and hammering the oak end grain over the hoop to keep it on.  I think the hammer is about 10 oz.  I like the positive feeling of the concentrated weight of the head.    I use mallets with carving tools as they don't have rings on the end. 
 
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