Jack or Jack Rabbet plane?

[RC]

I'm thinking of adding a longer plane than my no.4 Stanley to my hand plane collection and have been looking at the Low-angle Jack planes from Veritas & Lie-Nielsen for rough flattening of boards before putting them through my thicknesser.

While surfing around I also bumped into their Low-angle Jack Rabbet planes...

I'm really not planning on doing much hand tool joinery or door rebating but since I try to minimize the amount of stuff in my shop I'm wondering if it would still be worth the few extra euros (+80€) to rather get the LA Jack Rabbet to be able to do the odd rabbet one day with a single tool if need be? Is there a functional downside of a LA Jack rabbet compared to a regular LA Jack?

 

[cliffp]

I remember RL previously saying that he had a LN low angle jack (which he liked a lot) and that the rabbet version was not available at the time he purchased - he said that if he were to purchase now he would get the rabbet version. Despite his advice, I actually went for the standard LN low angle jack (and like it a lot). If I remember, the rabbet version is slightly smaller, which put me off. I also decided to get a separate plane for doing rebates (I have a Veritas medium shoulder plane and bullnose plane).

 

[mouppe]

Yes, Cliff is right, although since I wrote that I recently had the chance to try the rabbeting low angle jack and I would not buy it now. There are a few reasons why.

- I often use my low angle jack plane on a shooting board- there is no better plane for this other than the $500 dedicated shooting board planes. You cannot use a rabbeting plane on a shooting board. Major negative for me.

- The rabbeting plane is significantly lighter and slightly shorter than the low angle jack plane, and since I use my LA jack for rough jointing, it would be a small negative to have a shorter plane.

- I already have a shoulder plane (two if you include the wooden one I made this weekend at a Lie Nielsen workshop ;D) and there are other and sometimes better ways to cut a rabbet than using the low angle jack rabbet plane. I do consider a shoulder plane one of my essential tools so I would look to add this plane sooner or later. Then you would ask yourself why you got the jack rabbet plane with its disadvantages in the first place.

- If you use a honing guide, you may find that the rabbeting plane blade is awkward to clamp in the guide.

- According to the Lie Nielsen website both planes are the same price fyi.

- The Veritas rabbet plane comes with a fence so I would definitely go for this one over the Lie Nielsen. With the Lie Nielsen you would have to score an edge line and maybe notch it slightly with a chisel to create a ridge for the rabbet plane to lean against.

Others may have a different view but hope this helps.

 

[waho6o9]

I like the fence provided in the Veritas model.

[attachthumb=#]

 

[dpetrzelka]

Depending on your work the Jack rabbit plane can be limiting or a great feature - I would only recommend getting one if you need to do large rabbits with a hand plane, and you do not already have or intend to invest in a specialized rabbiting plane. Without the side bearing surfaces on the mouth a Jack Rabbit plane is not compatible with a  traditional shooting board.

Between Lie Nielsen and Veritas there are at least two primary considerations - the plane totes (handles) are quite different between the two. Some say the Lie Nielsen is better for traditional low height woodworking benches as the break angle of your wrist, for an average height guy, will be better. The Veritas LA Jack, say some, has a better angle for modern benches that are a little taller.

The Lie Nielsen is a very traditional design, while the Veritas employs some modern improvements ( purely editorial, I think they are improvements, and they work well for me) like the side set screws to keep the iron from skewing.

I'm also a fan of the mouth adjustment stop screw on the Veritas - allows setting your min/fine shaving mouth opening, ensuring you never run the mouth piece into the iron. Also allows quick return to your minimum setting after opening ht mouth to clear shavings.

And the final consideration is the plane iron composition. I've come to like the PMV-11 from Vertias quite a lot. So far in my usage its lived up to the hype of O2 keenness with A2 longevity.

The Vertias low-angle jack is very versatile in that it works well both for truing small-medium boards, but also works wonderfully on a shooting board.

Planes are as, or more personal than, any other woodworking tool - this is just my humble opinion. The only plane I like more is the Veritas LA block plane - a beautiful plane.

 

[RC]

Hmm... Interesting views...  [scratch chin]

So I guess using a shooting board for something like picture frames would be beneficial, but what else would one need one? Box making perhaps?

I'm also wondering now that if I want to minimize overlap of tools should I rather then go for a normal LA Jack for my primary task of getting board flat enough to put through my thicknesser for the first pass?
I already own a Veritas Skew Block plane, two Stanley Bailey #4's, Veritas spoke shaves (round & flat) and a Veritas router plane.

I use my planes on top of my MFT/3 and I'm in the process of designing a Moxon vice to put on it with a little table on top like Paul-Marcel's one with dog holes for clamping some pieces horizontally on the top.

I guess I can do some form of rabbeting with my Veritas Skew Block Plane.

The quick line-up of options would be then:
- the Lie-Nielsen LA Jack + a toothed blade for 344€ or
- a Veritas LA Jack with the PVM-11 standard blade + toothed blade for 340€ or
- the Veritas LA jointer plane (22") with the same toothed blade for 341€ or
- the Veritas Jack Rabbet with PVM-11 blade + fence for 369€

I guess the jack rabbet plane is the least suited for flattening stock since it does not have a toothed blade option at all and it was pointed out that its not good for shooting either. And to top it off I do already have my skew plane which is open on one side to do cleaning of tenon faces if need be. So I guess that's a strike.

Then the other three are a bit of a duh! situation - they cost virtually the same, they all have a toothed blade as well as optional blades for different angles and LN has the hot-dog handle available for comfort (thou 55€ for a piece of plastic does sound ridiculous in my ears). The Veritas LA jointer is a bit of a monster in size at 22" vs. the abt. 15" of the jack planes and therefore won't fit into the maxi systainer I'm planing on storing my planes in. If someone can make a good case for a large jointer over the jack planes I will consider it even thou it's huge. 

I wonder which one would be the best overall fit?

 

[derekcohen]

Yes, Cliff is right, although since I wrote that I recently had the chance to try the rabbeting low angle jack and I would not buy it now. There are a few reasons why.

- I often use my low angle jack plane on a shooting board- there is no better plane for this other than the $500 dedicated shooting board planes. You cannot use a rabbeting plane on a shooting board. Major negative for me.

- The rabbeting plane is significantly lighter and slightly shorter than the low angle jack plane, and since I use my LA jack for rough jointing, it would be a small negative to have a shorter plane.

- I already have a shoulder plane (two if you include the wooden one I made this weekend at a Lie Nielsen workshop ;D) and there are other and sometimes better ways to cut a rabbet than using the low angle jack rabbet plane. I do consider a shoulder plane one of my essential tools so I would look to add this plane sooner or later. Then you would ask yourself why you got the jack rabbet plane with its disadvantages in the first place.

- If you use a honing guide, you may find that the rabbeting plane blade is awkward to clamp in the guide.

- According to the Lie Nielsen website both planes are the same price fyi.

- The Veritas rabbet plane comes with a fence so I would definitely go for this one over the Lie Nielsen. With the Lie Nielsen you would have to score an edge line and maybe notch it slightly with a chisel to create a ridge for the rabbet plane to lean against.

Others may have a different view but hope this helps.

The LN version is smaller than the LV/Veritas.

I have very comprehensive review on my website of the Veritas Jack Rabbet Plane: inthewoodshop.com  go to ToolReviews  and then Veritas Jack Rabbet Plane

Hope this answers your questions.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[j123j]

Hmm... Interesting views...  [scratch chin]

So I guess using a shooting board for something like picture frames would be beneficial, but what else would one need one? Box making perhaps?

I'm also wondering now that if I want to minimize overlap of tools should I rather then go for a normal LA Jack for my primary task of getting board flat enough to put through my thicknesser for the first pass?
I already own a Veritas Skew Block plane, two Stanley Bailey #4's, Veritas spoke shaves (round & flat) and a Veritas router plane.

I use my planes on top of my MFT/3 and I'm in the process of designing a Moxon vice to put on it with a little table on top like Paul-Marcel's one with dog holes for clamping some pieces horizontally on the top.

I guess I can do some form of rabbeting with my Veritas Skew Block Plane.

The quick line-up of options would be then:
- the Lie-Nielsen LA Jack + a toothed blade for 344€ or
- a Veritas LA Jack with the PVM-11 standard blade + toothed blade for 340€ or
- the Veritas LA jointer plane (22") with the same toothed blade for 341€ or
- the Veritas Jack Rabbet with PVM-11 blade + fence for 369€

I guess the jack rabbet plane is the least suited for flattening stock since it does not have a toothed blade option at all and it was pointed out that its not good for shooting either. And to top it off I do already have my skew plane which is open on one side to do cleaning of tenon faces if need be. So I guess that's a strike.

Then the other three are a bit of a duh! situation - they cost virtually the same, they all have a toothed blade as well as optional blades for different angles and LN has the hot-dog handle available for comfort (thou 55€ for a piece of plastic does sound ridiculous in my ears). The Veritas LA jointer is a bit of a monster in size at 22" vs. the abt. 15" of the jack planes and therefore won't fit into the maxi systainer I'm planing on storing my planes in. If someone can make a good case for a large jointer over the jack planes I will consider it even thou it's huge. 

I wonder which one would be the best overall fit?

The mft is quite flimsy for handplaning. Before investing heavily in planes I might suggest making a solid bench to use them on.

The bench does not have to be huge, 30cm/12" deep and 150cm/60" long is big enough is space is really limited. Equipped with a planing stop, end-vise and holdfast holes it would make a big difference using handplanes over the mft.

Just make a stabile base and if you can or even need to, attach it to a wall or something with brackets or something.

Working with solid woods, handplanes and a stabile bench is a must if you dont have a planer/thicknesser or a tablesaw for that matter.

 

[RC]

Thanks j123j for the advice about building a proper a bench. I'd love to build a split-top roubo with all the trimmings, but...

I guess you aren't familiar with my workshop situation - I work on the backyard deck in the summers and everything needs to be packed away in the evening or when it rains. Also since I store most of my tools in the library they need to be very packable i.e. fitted into systainers and piled on each other to minimize space consumption. In the summer time when its not so humid I also have a non-heated shed to use for temporary storage of my MFT table, CMS system and CT VAC. During the winter they live in our living room and under the stairs.

I did start a thread once upon a time about the feasibility of building a workbench that could survive outside in the rain, snow, sleet, sun and everything in between and still have moving vices. No grand designs was revealed to do that  [unsure]

So for now my MFT and soon hopefully my Moxon vice on it or the backyard dinner table (a bit more heft to it than the MFT) have to suffice for planing. I have a Makita 2012 lunchbox thicknesser and all I need to do is to get the boards flat enough to get one side flat and then flip & go from there. I probably could do that with my #4 Stanley just as well, but somehow feel that it would be more enjoyable to do with a plane with slightly more heft and lenght to it and of course new shinnies is always tempting  [tongue]

We do have a small 3m x 6m shared hobby room in the housing complex we live in, but I wouldn't want to build an expensive bench there and have the neighbor flood it with engine oil from his lawnmower, saw and hammer into it or spray paint it with god knows what like the door that's there currently acting as a 'table'. There are two neighbors that I trust with some of my tools, but the other 27 can't tell the difference between a saw and a hammer.

I mainly use the hobby room for applying finishes is a less dusty environment than outdoors. You also cannot leave your projects there for much more than a few days at a time so that limits the usability of the space. 

 

[RC]

Thanks Derek for the pointers - I'm up for a lot of reading going through your site. Quite thorough review indeed.

So if I understood correctly you would rather either acquire a jointer or jack plane for flattening boards and a rebate plane for rebating then trying to do both with a single jack rabbet one?

It was interesting to see your rather simple and elegant solution to using the jack rabbet on a shooting board  [big grin]

 

[FOGNewbie]

Hi Reiska. Have you considered the LN set? http://www.lie-nielsen.com/low-angle-bench-planes/low-angle-jack-plane-set/

I have it and like it. The toothed blade comes in handy. With the kit, you get the hotdog handle as well. Haven't built a shooting board yet.  Going off of Christopher Schwarz's Coarse, Medium, Fine method, I have used my LN 62 with the toothed blade for coarse work, a low angle 22 for medium, and a 4 1/2 with a high angle frog for the fine work. You could skip the smoother and hone a high angle on a low angle jack plane, but a smoothing plane would be ideal.

I'd suggest you look at a blum plane and see if that would appeal to you, but I don't know if they ship outside of the USA.  They have a unique sharpening jig. I've yet to buy one, but used one at a tool demo. The smoother and jointer planes were really nice. Some day. Trying to fill in some Festool gaps first...
Blum Tool Company
By The Way Checkout the work benches. Maybe you could come up with a bench that is like one of those for your hand tool work. The vises appear to be pipe clamps.

 

[waho6o9]

http://www.blumtool.com/

 

[FOGNewbie]

http://www.blumtool.com/

Thanks!

 

[tiralie]

I have very comprehensive review on my website of the Veritas Jack Rabbet Plane: inthewoodshop.com  go to ToolReviews  and then Veritas Jack Rabbet Plane

Hope this answers your questions.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Welcome to the FOG Derek!
Tim