Japanese Kitchen knives

[hdv]

Biggest mistake I ever made in my life was to give away my Miyabi Birchwood knives!  [eek]

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A very good friend of mine, who at the time was having a very bad period in his life, saw me using the Nakiri and wanted to try it out. After warning him about its sharpness and showing him the proper technique to hold and cut with the knife he proceeded to cut of about 5 mm of the knuckle (tissue and cartilage) of the first digit on his left index finger. He still can't bend that finger properly anymore. Weirdly though, he still fell in love with those knifes and I gave them to him. That is a couple of years ago and I still pine for those knives. Just writing this makes me think I should be buying another set in the near future. In these unsure times I am not sure about spending that kind of money on kitchen knives though.  [scared]

 

[GoingMyWay]

Wow that's such a nice looking knife I might not want to use it for fear of ruining it or messing it up.

Did you give your friend the knives because you felt bad about him cutting himself so badly or because he was having a bad period in his life?

That was a very nice gift to give in either case!

 

[hdv]

He was having a seriously bad time and I've known him for over 30 years. He was less lucky in life than I am and does not have the means to get his hands on such knives. A few days after the incident (his finger was still in bandages) he was at my home again and I gave them as a present to him. He was and still is over the moon about those knives! And, I am happy to say, he hasn't cut himself with them after that anymore (as far as I know  [wink] ). I never regretted giving them to him. You should have seen his face. But I do regret not having them myself anymore!!!!

 

[Tinker]

My wife, as many of you know,is from Germany. For  many years, while our kids were growing up, she made all of our bread the old fashioned way. She cut her bread the same way she learned from her mother. She would put a loaf against her chest and saw away. I would go out of my head when she did that.

I always kept my knives sharpened so I could shave with them. After couple of rounds of "explaining" the falacy of cutting bread against her chest, I bought a serated bread knife from the hardware store and showed her how to use that. Once she used that knife, she found out that she could not only saw thru the bread against a cutting board, but it kept me a whole lot quieter. She still does not cut straight, but I have learned to not be quite so noisy about her methods of cutting bread.
Tinker

 

[hdv]

Ha!  [big grin]  Having lived for a few years in Germany myself, I do recognise that strange cutting habit! I never understood it, but I have seen it being done like that many times. Especially in the older generation.

 

[Tinker]

My MIL lived to 93 and until 90 (the last time I visited her in Germany) she was still cutting bread that way.

 

[GoingMyWay]

I watched the movie Fatso a couple of weeks ago and noticed that was how Dom DeLuise cut the bread:=1806.  I thought that might have been done just for the movie, but then I discovered that Dom DeLuise was actually quite the cook, who even had his own cooking mini series.  He peeled his eggplant in the same manner:=1438.  I had never seen this technique before, especially not with such a big knife!

I'm always impressed when I see older cooks who cut most vegetables with a small paring knife toward their finger directly over the pot, which pretty much eliminates the need to even have a cutting board: =72

 

[Cheese]

I had been considering getting a Japanese Nakiri vegetable knife after seeing it used on some cooking shows.  I liked that the wider blade makes transferring ingredients from the cutting board to the bowl or pot easier.  I ultimately decided to get a Chinese CCK cleaver so we can try to pretend to be like Martin Yan with his lightning fast chopping skills (and also trying to seemingly liquefy garlic and ginger by smashing them with the cleaver).

It's become my wife's go to knife.  I jokingly tell her we can throw away all of our Global knives since the cleaver can do just about everything all those other knives could do.

Over 40+ years ago I purchased this Wusthof Chinese cleaver. At that point I already owned a complete selection of Wusthof knives, however, this cleaver became my go-to knife for 80% of my cutting tasks. As you mentioned, this is fantastic at transferring ingredients to the pan/bowl.

So for the last 30+ years, my cutting utensils have been this Wusthof cleaver, a serrated bread knife, a filet knife and a paring knife. That's really all I needed. Check out the thinness of the blade.

[attachimg=1]

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Then about 8-10 years ago I picked up a Shun Premier 7" Santoku knife. This knife is noticeably sharper than the Wusthof and it holds an edge longer because the steel is harder. The Shun has now replaced the Wusthof cleaver.

Here's an edge photo of a Wusthof 8" Chef and the Shun 7" Santoku.

[attachimg=3]

The only issue is because the steel is harder and thinner in the Shun knives vs Wusthof, small edge chipping can be an issue. I exclusively use an Epicurean cutting board (wood pulp matrix and it can be washed in the dishwasher) to minimize the damage and I never use a different cutting surface. I also don't chop but rather slice the vegetables to minimize damage.

This photo looks worse than it really is as these are very tiny chips and the blade is still extremely sharp.

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[demographic]

One habit I've developed with decent knives is after I've cut the veg up and I want to scrape them off the chopping board and into a pan/salad bowl/whatever I use the spine of the blade instead of the edge.
Its dead simple to do and keeps the edge of the blade in better condition.

Or out it this way, you wouldnt use a cabinet scraper with such an acute angle and expect it to last.

Obviously I don't use one of those dodgy glass chopping boards either and nor do I cut against plates, thats just basic common sense.

 

[GoingMyWay]

I had been considering getting a Japanese Nakiri vegetable knife after seeing it used on some cooking shows.  I liked that the wider blade makes transferring ingredients from the cutting board to the bowl or pot easier.  I ultimately decided to get a Chinese CCK cleaver so we can try to pretend to be like Martin Yan with his lightning fast chopping skills (and also trying to seemingly liquefy garlic and ginger by smashing them with the cleaver).

It's become my wife's go to knife.  I jokingly tell her we can throw away all of our Global knives since the cleaver can do just about everything all those other knives could do.

Over 40+ years ago I purchased this Wusthof Chinese cleaver. At that point I already owned a complete selection of Wusthof knives, however, this cleaver became my go-to knife for 80% of my cutting tasks. As you mentioned, this is fantastic at transferring ingredients to the pan/bowl.

So for the last 30+ years, my cutting utensils have been this Wusthof cleaver, a serrated bread knife, a filet knife and a paring knife. That's really all I needed. Check out the thinness of the blade.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

Then about 8-10 years ago I picked up a Shun Premier 7" Santoku knife. This knife is noticeably sharper than the Wusthof and it holds an edge longer because the steel is harder. The Shun has now replaced the Wusthof cleaver.

Here's an edge photo of a Wusthof 8" Chef and the Shun 7" Santoku.

[attachimg=3]

The only issue is because the steel is harder and thinner in the Shun knives vs Wusthof, small edge chipping can be an issue. I exclusively use an Epicurean cutting board (wood pulp matrix and it can be washed in the dishwasher) to minimize the damage and I never use a different cutting surface. I also don't chop but rather slice the vegetables to minimize damage.

This photo looks worse than it really is as these are very tiny chips and the blade is still extremely sharp.

[attachimg=4]

The CCK cleaver is also very thin.  It should definitely not be confused with a more traditional Western Cleaver that's used for chopping bones.  The Chinese cleaver is really just a Chinese chef's knife.  I learned that the Chinese cleaver was used in the past to slice things very thin, but I think that's been mostly replaced with a mandolin.  I was able to hold the cleaver parallel to the cutting board and make extremely thin onion slices (I think even thinner than the Benriner mandoline, but obviously much much slower).

I read on some knife forums that these CCK Chinese cleavers usually sell for $30 in Hong Kong (I wish I had known about this last year when we were on vacation in Hong Kong and Taiwan).  These are very simple utilitarian cutting instruments that work well.  Lots of people have found out about these CCK cleavers (and other similar variants) so there's a lot of demand for them and now they're being sold online for a lot more than $30.  I paid $90 for mine.

One habit I've developed with decent knives is after I've cut the veg up and I want to scrape them off the chopping board and into a pan/salad bowl/whatever I use the spine of the blade instead of the edge.
Its dead simple to do and keeps the edge of the blade in better condition.

Or out it this way, you wouldnt use a cabinet scraper with such an acute angle and expect it to last.

Obviously I don't use one of those dodgy glass chopping boards either and nor do I cut against plates, thats just basic common sense.

That's a very good point about trying to avoid scraping ingredients with the edge side of the blade.  That isn't great for the knife as it tends to roll the edge.  Based on my own observations and personal experience it seems most people are guilty of scraping with the edge side.

My wife hand washes the cleaver and our Global knives, but then she lays the longer knives edge side down against the metal drying rack.  That explains where some of those shiny spots on the blade edge come from.  In a perfect world you'd immediately wash and dry the knife and put it back into the knife block, but I don't think many people do that unless they have a very high end expensive/custom knife.  The good news is that I'm able to sharpen the knives myself so I have no concern/fear when the knife hits a bone by mistake or occasionally cutting on a plate or having the edge bang against the metal drying rack.  I find it more convenient and less stressful to be able to just use the knife and not have to be overly concerned about babying it and worrying about dulling the knife. 

You are absolutely right though - using a little common sense when it comes to the knives will reduce the frequency of sharpenings and possibly avoid a big chip that will require a lot of the knife to be ground away to fix.

 

[Cheese]

My wife hand washes the cleaver and our Global knives, but then she lays the longer knives edge side down against the metal drying rack.  That explains where some of those shiny spots on the blade edge come from.  In a perfect world you'd immediately wash and dry the knife and put it back into the knife block, but I don't think many people do that unless they have a very high end expensive/custom knife.  The good news is that I'm able to sharpen the knives myself so I have no concern/fear when the knife hits a bone by mistake or occasionally cutting on a plate or having the edge bang against the metal drying rack.  I find it more convenient and less stressful to be able to just use the knife and not have to be overly concerned about babying it and worrying about dulling the knife. 

You are absolutely right though - using a little common sense when it comes to the knives will reduce the frequency of sharpenings and possibly avoid a big chip that will require a lot of the knife to be ground away to fix.

Interesting...just found this on the Shun website:

Without proper knife technique, micro chipping can be the downside of very hard stainless steel. A cook who is unfamiliar with the hardness of Japanese knives and is used to strongly chopping down with a knife against a cutting board, may indeed chip the knife. The damage will be even more pronounced when cutting against ceramic, glass or marble (please don’t!). Micro chips in the blade edge can also occur if a spot of rust develops on the extremely thin edge, too.

The good news is that with a gliding cut, the proper cutting surface, and making sure the knife is thoroughly dry before storing, the chances of chipping are reduced enormously. What’s more, micro chips can easily be sharpened out. Our Warranty Service Department will be happy to help you with that.

Shun knives are also sharpened at a 16º angle.

 

[Tinker]

I have noticed cutting boards mentioned lately. I have made several cutting boards and very sharp knives that i have put handle scales on. I came across this article years ago and include with any gift.  I don't know where it came from, but I have it in my records for immediate printing.
 
Why Wood Cutting Boards are Better than Plastic or Glass
As I mentioned above, we were required to use plastic cutting boards when catering.  In Plastic and Wooden Cutting Boards by Dean O. Cliver, Ph.D of UC Davis, they noted that “the U.S. Department of Agriculture told us they had no scientific evidence to support their recommendation that plastic, rather than wooden cutting boards”.
The problem is that while it may seem like plastic is non-porous and can’t absorb liquids, with use the surface becomes knife-scarred.  This rough surface is exceptionally difficult to clean, even with bleach or running through the dishwasher.  Wood, by contrast, shows the ability to halt the growth of and kill bacteria applied to its surface.  Both new and used wooden cutting boards maintain this ability equally well.
In a study conducted at the University of Wisconsin (also by Dr. Cliver), they tested bacteria known to produce food poisoning – Salmonella, Listeria and enterohemorrhagic Escherichia coli. These bacteria were placed on cutting boards made from seven different species of trees and four types of plastic. All the wooden boards consistently outperformed the plastic.
The scientists found that three minutes after contaminating a board that 99.9 percent of the bacteria on wooden boards had died, while none of the bacteria died on plastic. Bacterial numbers actually increased on plastic cutting boards held overnight at room temperature, but the scientists could not recover any bacteria from wooden boards treated the same way.
Dr. Cliver also discusses a case-control study of sporadic salmonellosis in Plastic and Wooden Cutting Boards:

Basically, wood cutting boards kill bacteria.  They can’t figure out exactly how, but they know that it’s true.  Old or new, wood cutting boards add an extra line of defense to your kitchen.  Bamboo may have similar properties, but the only test data I was able to find about antimicrobial properties of bamboo focused on bamboo cloth.  Read Bamboo – is it Antimicrobial?
Additionally:
• Wood cutting boards protect your knives and don’t dull them like ceramic or glass cutting boards.
• Wood is completely biodegradable and renewable.
• Wood cutting boards may support small business.  Check out your local farmers markets and craft fairs for handmade products.
How to Care for Your Wood Cutting Board
Wash boards after each use in warm, soapy water.  If you have chunks of food stuck on the surface, use a knife or kitchen scraper to remove most of it before washing.  Do not leave boards to soak!  Do not wash wooden cutting boards in the dishwasher.  They will absorb water, and this could trash your cutting board. Dry thoroughly before storing.  I prefer air drying in the dish rack.
To remove odors, rub down with half a lemon or spritz with some vinegar.  This will also help sanitize the board.
Wood cutting boards should be regularly seasoned with a good quality cutting board oil.  You can find them in most hardware stores.  Mineral oil is typically used, since it does not go rancid.  Do not use vegetable oil or olive oil.  There are oil blends such as Block Bros. Block Oil that are made with shelf stable edible oils.  To season, start with a clean, dry cutting board.  Coat entire surface with a layer of oil and rub it in.  Let set to absorb in warm, dry area for 12 to 24 hours.  Buff to remove any oil that may not have been absorbed.

Tinker

 

[GoingMyWay]

Knife Grinders from Australia has done a lot of testing showing how different cutting boards effect edge retention.  Their testing was obviously not how a person uses a knife in real life, but nevertheless I still found it fascinating that their testing showed that a knife edge could actually get sharper depending on the type of cutting board that was used.  That's completely counterintuitive to me.  Their results also show that an end grain cutting board doesn't necessarily keep an edge sharper longer than a long grain cutting board either.

Here's their video: (audio is rather low and hard to hear).

and a link to their PDF:http://knifegrinders.com.au/SET/Chopping_Boards.pdf.

 

[demographic]

Well, I've just ordered this for my daughter.
She's buying her first house and I'm getting her something I know she'll appreciate and look after.
Santuko.

 

[hdv]

Great job! I am sure she'll be very glad with such a nice gift! A Santoku is a nice multi-purpose knife.  [thumbs up]

I remember the first time I got a real good knife. The only problem was that after getting it I just "needed" to replace all my other knives as well. Oh wait, the other problem was trying to explain to my friends why there really was no chance they could borrow my good knives.  [embarassed] Some still don't understand...  [tongue]

It can become a bit of an addiction. Just reading about Cheese's Chinese Chef's knife made me look on the internet for good deals...  [scared] Thanks Cheese...  [blink]

Ah well, who am I writing this to? Here on the FOG we know all about really expen..... ehrrr necessary tools!  [wink]

[Edit] That should have read "GoingMyWay's Chinese Chef's Knife" of course...

 

[GoingMyWay]

The Santoku is a good all around knife.  That's been our primary knife prior to getting the Chinese cleaver.  I still feel more comfortable using the Santoku as I'm most familiar with it.

 

[threesixright]

Anybody mentioned this?
https://japanesechefsknife.com

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[rvieceli]

I'll post these folks again. They have a wonderful shop and selection in New Orleans as well as one in Nashville. They are real small business people just trying to stay afloat. Plus they are nice folks. Like many small businesses the COVID stuff is really hitting them hard with all the restaurant and bar closures and restrictions. So if you are interested in Japanese and other quality knives take a look at their website. I'm not affiliated with them in any way just a satisfied customer. you can also follow them on Instagram.
https://couteliernola.com/
https://www.instagram.com/couteliernola/

Ron

 

[SGreenberg]

Here's another great shop. I've bought knives and sharpening stones there. They have a couple Youtube videos about sharpening that are very helpful too. Looks like they have a sale on now too:
https://www.korin.com

 

[bertv]

When you give someone a knife do NOT forget to ask for a copper coin in return. Seriously — the consequences could be dire if you don’t.

Well, once I got my first Global knife, 20 years plus ago, I got rid of the Wusthofs and other western style knifes, except the very cheap 'mighty' little Mühle (Windmill) all purpose pairing knife, for which I always have a replacement around because they tend to disappear along with potato peelings and such. Apart from that my kitchen is a Global only shop.

And I DID ask the recipients of those discarded knives for a five cent coin.