Kapex 120 accuracy

[Pooman]

Hi Everyone
I bought a Kapex about 8 years ago. Was very excited about this very expensive purchase. But to my surprise the accuracy was not good. The saw had awesome features but accuracy is paramount in my books. I tried everything. Hours and hours adjusting this saw. I really wanted it to workout.  I finally realized that the Pointer on the miter scale was slightly off ever time I swung the table. If I swung it to the left say 20 or 30 degrees and then brought it back to zero the pointer would be slightly to the right of zero. If I swung the table to the right say 20 or 30 degrees and then brought it back to zero the pointer would be slightly to the left of zero. Took the saw back and the dealer gave me a new one. Same problem with the new one. Went to a few other dealers who had them on display and they all did the same thing. I ended taking the saw back and bought a 12" Milwaukee which was rock solid. The Milwaukee was great but lacked a few features of the Kapex. Every now and then I would see a Kapex on display in some stores. I would always go and check them out. They all did the same thing as my originals. So all in all I've probably checked out about 20 Kapex saws over the last 8 years and they all did the same thing. I would always check out the other big brands also and they were always rock solid. Well I'm in need of a new saw again. So I thought I would check out Festool again. Maybe they changed something. Went to my local Festool dealer today to check them out. Nope still the same problem. What amazes me even more is that all the U-tube videos and websites and professionals haven't picked up on this.( are they getting paid off ) Makes no sense. Maybe the problem could be overlooked a little if the saws were at the same price range as the other big names. But there in some cases almost 3 to 5 times as much money. Example - I was in Home Depot Canada today and there was a great saw on sale. Dewalt DSW779 12" CSMS for $398 dollars($449 with tax). The Kapex is $1920 dollars ($2169 with tax) almost 5 times as much. The Dewalt is a great saw. For this kind of money these saws should be dead-on accurate out of the box and bullet proof. I don't mind paying extra premium for high quality but I'm not going to pay a premium for inaccuracy. So the odds of this many Kapex saws over all these years having the same problem is pretty remote in my books. There is a flaw in the detent area.

 

[peter halle]

What I didn’t read in the post you made was if the cuts were accurate.  You mentioned the pointer on the scale.  Were they accurate?

Peter

 

[ChuckM]

I was intrigued by the OP's observations based on his checking of several KS120. I never paid attention to the pointer, but thought it was not an issue since my angle cuts did not pose any problems for me in the past. Curiosity drove me to the shop (sitting at 7.4 C; outside -10C) to repeat what he did (assuming I understood his steps correctly), and see if the pointer changed after swinging the saw to the left and to the right.

Photo 1 - Temperature in the shop
2- Pointer at 0
3- Swing to the left
4- Back to 0
5 - Swing to the right
6 - Back to 0

Judge for yourself, everyone, if the pointer on my Kapex changed after the turntable was moved left and right. My Kapex was bought in early 2015, and has been in my hobby shop since.

Next time when I am at my local LV store (after Christmas! -- the place is crazily packed until after Xmas), I will take a look and see if the pointer does have the reported issue.

You should try yours out if you have an opportunity as your saw may have a different result. Of course, what matters is what Peter points out: the accuracy of the cuts.

P.S. I usually stop woodworking when the outside temperature drops below -15C.

 

[Pooman]

No the cuts were not accurate. When you swing the table one way and then back to zero it always goes past Zero by a small amount (This adds up pretty fast depending what your making).  Im not moving at a snail pace either but not overly fast either. Just an average swing speed. I just want to say that I really wanted this saw to workout because it has an array of nice features. Its like buying a Lamborghini and it not handling as good as a Toyota Corolla. You'd be pretty disappointed. In my opinion when you spend this kind o money it should leave all the other manufacturers in the dust. Believe me it isn't going to take long or the other big companies Dewalt, Makita, Milwaukee etc to implement features That the Kapex has. It has already started. Makita LS1019 as an example. 

 

[ChuckM]

Did you get a chance to check and tune up your KS120 when you first got it? It might not be dead-on from the factory. It took me some efforts to set the saw right:http://lumberjocks.com/projects/151130

I do wish expensive machines like the KS came to us perfectly factory-set without further fine-tuning by the users. But I haven't met any such machine except one: the SawStop PCS, which I did nothing other than assembly and installing the fence (which still required some tune-up.).

 

[nclemmons]

I’m not seeing the difference in the photos at 0.  I see what looks like parallax errors isn’t the two 20 degree settings. 

I will check on my saw which was purchased the year it was released.  I had the spring grinding problem which they replaced with a new part. 

 

[Bohdan]

I have to agree with [member=69360]Pooman[/member] when I swing from the right it stops exactly on the line but when I come from the left it goes about a cursor line thickness past the line.  [eek]

Will do a cut to see if both are square.

 

[ChuckM]

Neil,

The 20* was not critical. I did not set the saw dead-on to either 20*, it was just to swing the saw left and right roughly at 20* to imitate Pooman's steps.

 

[Pooman]

Yes I did a similar test to the one in the video. I cut (4) 4" baseboard pieces with 45 degrees on either side and put them all together to form a square. Each piece o baseboard was a triangle shape.The square that the baseboard pieces was not accurate. 

 

[Pooman]

The reference to 20 or 30 degrees was just a random number. the point of the exercise was to get you to have a bit o swing speed back to the zero mark. If you only went 5 degrees there wouldn't be much swing speed back to zero.

 

[ChuckM]

After finding the saw to be making out-of-square cuts, did you fine-tune the scale/pointer to correct it? It took me a lot of time to get the cuts dead-on as explained in my Lumberjocks post. I even stripped one of the screws on the scale because of so many back-and-forth adjustments and test cuts in the fine-tuning process. Frankly, I would have been willing to pay a Festool approved service technician to get that tuning done for me.

 

[rmhinden]

I went and checked my Kapex.  Pictures below.  Same sequence, center, left, center, right, and back to center.  All looks fine to me.

BTW, I assume the saw is being brought back to the hard stop at 0 degrees.

My saw is about a year old.

 

[ChuckM]

Hard stop (locked down) in my case, too.

 

[Bohdan]

Just did a cut test and I can confirm that the "squareness" varies depending on which side you swing the saw from.

Didn't measure the error but it was enough to totally screw up any project.  [mad]

Adjusting the cursor would make no difference as from the right it was dead on.

I am using the built in stops on the machine, not setting the squareness by the cursor. Using the same stop the actual position that the saw stops seems to vary depending on which side you approach it from. Similar to backlash on a thicknesser.

 

[ChuckM]

Try the two-cut method, and it will give you the variance or deviation, I think. One more thing to check: is the fence straight across (aux-fences, too?)? I don't put aux. fences on my saw because they threw the cuts off, which might be due to the quality of the ply fences.

 

[Pooman]

Hi ChuckM
I tried everything on two saws. It is also visual. if its not stopping exactly on zero the cut is going to be off. Pretty sure the problem lies in how the mechanism clicks into the detent. I can manually set the saw to exactly zero but as soon as you start swing the table back and forth it goes past zero a bit. Like I said before it adds up.

 

[Pooman]

Hi Bohdan
seems like you tested it perfect. Yes this small amount of inaccuracy will screw up a project

 

[RKA]

It sounds like there is a problem with the indexing on the fixed stops, as if they are too wide and have too much slop so when you swing back to center it goes to the far side of the stop?  Did you notice any slop after engaging in the stop (but not locking the table)?

 

[Pooman]

Hi RKA
I don't think its slop. I think its flex.

 

[Bohdan]

I agree with the flex option

No movement once the detent is engaged, can't even tap it over with my hand.

It's like the detent "pin" is bending/flexing or moving from the impact of hitting the detent position. If I move it from the left and don't hit the detent pin but lower the pin into the detent it stops at the same spot as from the right but it's a real PITA if you have to do this every time.

My fix is to only appoach the detents from, in my case, the right and treat it as a form of backlash.

Not happy as once again the Kapex proves that it's a lemon.