kapex #5 returned today lasted less than a week

please keep on using your guards if they make you feel safe , im not trying to stop you.

is sending someone to the hospital a benefit?

people grow accustomed to blade guards and rely on them, then when they get hung up, they hurt themselves. just like in the above post.  case in point.

i just state my opinion here, i don't want folk to run out and remove their safety features.   
i would never loan a saw with a pinned guard to an amateur
this thread was started because of a  kapex returned with a malfunctioning guard.  in my reality all guards malfunction.  that is all i'm trying to say.     
 
 
I'm sure this is totally politically incorrect, and many will (probably rightly, in their own minds) 100 % disagree with me, but my blade guards are all dis-engaged, so I can ALWAYS see my blade one hundred percent of the time. Also, as you all know, guards can severely interfere with smaller cuts, which we are often called upon to make.. But then again, I would teach my kids to look both ways , rather than just relying on the traffic lights....
  OK, lay into me....it's OK.
  However, I also don't lend my tools .  Hey, that's a good next excuse when someone asks to borrow my tools...sorry, no guards...!
 
i can understand guards pinned up on hand held circlular saws, such as my skill worm drive.  I have one that the guard is pinned up, but I am the only one who use it.  and yes that is very dangerous because you have to remember it is up.

but yes guards due malfunction, I have never had one on a chop saw screw up except this one on a 1394.00 kapex.  (includes tax)  should it have happened?  no, but things do happen.  if this had been my first kapex then I would not be so upset.  but this was the 5th one I have gone through since 7-1 when I bought one of the first ones on the block.

guards up, guards down.  it is your saw and you can do whatever you want.  we all do things we shouldn't with saws and 99% of the time we are lucky.

as always you have to be thinking all the time with cuts.  afterall 90% of us probably do not have guards on our table saws because they are a pain..

so cut away and have a great safe day no matter how you cut it... just rock and roll.
 
I would just say the difference between a table saw and circular saw is you don't lay a table saw down on it's blade when you finish a cut. But.... if that's how you work and feel comfortable with it, have at it.

                                                                                                                            jack

quote author=honeydokreg link=topic=5562.msg57995#msg57995 date=1226401420]
i can understand guards pinned up on hand held circlular saws, such as my skill worm drive.  I have one that the guard is pinned up, but I am the only one who use it.  and yes that is very dangerous because you have to remember it is up.

but yes guards due malfunction, I have never had one on a chop saw screw up except this one on a 1394.00 kapex.  (includes tax)  should it have happened?  no, but things do happen.  if this had been my first kapex then I would not be so upset.  but this was the 5th one I have gone through since 7-1 when I bought one of the first ones on the block.

guards up, guards down.  it is your saw and you can do whatever you want.  we all do things we shouldn't with saws and 99% of the time we are lucky.

as always you have to be thinking all the time with cuts.  afterall 90% of us probably do not have guards on our table saws because they are a pain..

so cut away and have a great safe day no matter how you cut it... just rock and roll.
[/quote]
 
stevelf said:
I'm sure this is totally politically incorrect, and many will (probably rightly, in their own minds) 100 % disagree with me, but my blade guards are all dis-engaged, so I can ALWAYS see my blade one hundred percent of the time. Also, as you all know, guards can severely interfere with smaller cuts, which we are often called upon to make.. But then again, I would teach my kids to look both ways , rather than just relying on the traffic lights....
  OK, lay into me....it's OK.
  However, I also don't lend my tools .  Hey, that's a good next excuse when someone asks to borrow my tools...sorry, no guards...!

If you can not see the blade on your miter box with the guard working you need a different miter saw.

I can see it on a table saw. I can even see it on a worm drive ONCE in a while, but on a miter saw it is totally insane to disable the guard , period. There is not reason and no benefit and if there is, again you have a badly designed miter box.

I wonder about the person disabling the guard on a chop box, miter saw or slider, they would never work for me and would be thrown off a union site in 5 minutes. I am not picking on you, but on everyone that disables a guard on a chop box, I just see no reason for it. If it needs disabling buy a better tool.
 
nickao said:
stevelf said:
I'm sure this is totally politically incorrect, and many will (probably rightly, in their own minds) 100 % disagree with me, but my blade guards are all dis-engaged, so I can ALWAYS see my blade one hundred percent of the time. Also, as you all know, guards can severely interfere with smaller cuts, which we are often called upon to make.. But then again, I would teach my kids to look both ways , rather than just relying on the traffic lights....
  OK, lay into me....it's OK.
  However, I also don't lend my tools .  Hey, that's a good next excuse when someone asks to borrow my tools...sorry, no guards...!

If you can not see the blade on your miter box with the guard working you need a different miter saw.

I can see it on a table saw. I can even see it on a worm drive ONCE in a while, but on a miter saw it is totally insane to disable the guard , period. There is not reason and no benefit and if there is, again you have a badly designed miter box.

I wonder about the person disabling the guard on a chop box, miter saw or slider, they would never work for me and would be thrown off a union site in 5 minutes. I am not picking on you, but on everyone that disables a guard on a chop box, I just see no reason for it. If it needs disabling buy a better tool.

nick,
      you assume that someone would want to work for you after  you just posted that you cant have working or economic relationships  with your friends or family.      you waste alot of time throwing heavy judgements around at folk.    do you think that makes the fog a better place?
                                                        bill
 
Anyone who operates a miter saw and intentionally removes and or disarms the guard better have health insurance. 

The law of averages will appear soon down the road. 

When I use my miter saw, I always look to see where the location of my hands and fingers are in relation to the path of the blade prior to starting the saw and cut. 

It is easy to forget safety, when one is of mind that convenience or speed at the job is more important. 

Remember?The Law of Averages. 

I work by myself and have opted out of the need to experience the real life drama of a finger or hand cut or cut off by a miter saw blade, all power blades at that.

A union safety inspector would shut the saw down fast on the job site.  Protection of the union members is their job. 

Nickao is right. 
 
spikfot said:
nickao said:
stevelf said:
I'm sure this is totally politically incorrect, and many will (probably rightly, in their own minds) 100 % disagree with me, but my blade guards are all dis-engaged, so I can ALWAYS see my blade one hundred percent of the time. Also, as you all know, guards can severely interfere with smaller cuts, which we are often called upon to make.. But then again, I would teach my kids to look both ways , rather than just relying on the traffic lights....
  OK, lay into me....it's OK.
  However, I also don't lend my tools .  Hey, that's a good next excuse when someone asks to borrow my tools...sorry, no guards...!

If you can not see the blade on your miter box with the guard working you need a different miter saw.

I can see it on a table saw. I can even see it on a worm drive ONCE in a while, but on a miter saw it is totally insane to disable the guard , period. There is not reason and no benefit and if there is, again you have a badly designed miter box.

I wonder about the person disabling the guard on a chop box, miter saw or slider, they would never work for me and would be thrown off a union site in 5 minutes. I am not picking on you, but on everyone that disables a guard on a chop box, I just see no reason for it. If it needs disabling buy a better tool.

nick,
       you assume that someone would want to work for you after  you just posted that you cant have working or economic relationships  with your friends or family.      you waste alot of time throwing heavy judgements around at folk.    do you think that makes the fog a better place?
                                                        bill

Bill,

If I were new to woodworking (and many newbies read this site) and didn't know any better, and read your post about leaving the bladegaurd pinned,  I may do the same, taking advice from a seasoned pro, thinking it is a better way to work like a pro.  If no one disputed your view, I might think it was a safe and better way to run a miter saw, and the probable resulting accident would change my life forever (And believe me, I have seen plenty of life changing accidents with 30 years in the medical field).  So I think Nick's opinion about it being unsafe should be welcomed.  What your suggesting as "OK"  is extreeme and unsafe.  Thats why a union site would shut you down....  this practice,  pinning the blade gaurd up,  will,  without a doubt,  cause more serious accidents than doing the obvious...leaving the gaurd in place.  If you want to run your saw that way, so be it.  However I wouldn't get your feathers ruffled if many don't aggree with your views.  Nick's opinion on safety should be welcomed.  If others on this site disaggree with the way you work, its not  a personal attack on you, rather its a different opinion on the safety practice itself.

As for doing work for family and friends,  For me, frendships are more important than money,  If I work for them... I do it for free...and even then you take a risk... usually everything is fine but when you mix business with friends they usually want something for nothing (They don't actually say that outloud).  Before I do business with friends I ask myself... is loosing this friend ok if  something goes wrong... then I work for free as a gift...  I am lucky that I don't have to rely on woodworking income to put food on the table.

My opinion, peace out.......
 
another decision time.  my festool rep called me yesterday and said that he fixed the saw as the guard had just came out of the track....... why did this happen in the first place... and do I want to go and pick this one up again?

the turntable worked great the few days I had it.... but will the guard pop out again?

this drives me crazy.

 
Ken S said:
Anyone who operates a miter saw and intentionally removes and or disarms the guard better have health insurance. 

The law of averages will appear soon down the road. 

When I use my miter saw, I always look to see where the location of my hands and fingers are in relation to the path of the blade prior to starting the saw and cut. 

It is easy to forget safety, when one is of mind that convenience or speed at the job is more important. 

Remember?The Law of Averages. 

I work by myself and have opted out of the need to experience the real life drama of a finger or hand cut or cut off by a miter saw blade, all power blades at that.

A union safety inspector would shut the saw down fast on the job site.  Protection of the union members is their job. 

Nickao is right. 

your opinion is welcome here.

in over 20 years i have not,  and never will be on a union job site.  along with the majority of the people who use this site.      congratulations on your choice to leave your guards in place.  i hope they protect you well.
 
honeydokreg said:
another decision time.  my festool rep called me yesterday and said that he fixed the saw as the guard had just came out of the track....... why did this happen in the first place... and do I want to go and pick this one up again?

Tell the Festool Rep to personally deliver the saw back to you, free of charge!
Mike
 
wnagle said:
spikfot said:
nickao said:
stevelf said:
I'm sure this is totally politically incorrect, and many will (probably rightly, in their own minds) 100 % disagree with me, but my blade guards are all dis-engaged, so I can ALWAYS see my blade one hundred percent of the time. Also, as you all know, guards can severely interfere with smaller cuts, which we are often called upon to make.. But then again, I would teach my kids to look both ways , rather than just relying on the traffic lights....
  OK, lay into me....it's OK.
  However, I also don't lend my tools .  Hey, that's a good next excuse when someone asks to borrow my tools...sorry, no guards...!

If you can not see the blade on your miter box with the guard working you need a different miter saw.

I can see it on a table saw. I can even see it on a worm drive ONCE in a while, but on a miter saw it is totally insane to disable the guard , period. There is not reason and no benefit and if there is, again you have a badly designed miter box.

I wonder about the person disabling the guard on a chop box, miter saw or slider, they would never work for me and would be thrown off a union site in 5 minutes. I am not picking on you, but on everyone that disables a guard on a chop box, I just see no reason for it. If it needs disabling buy a better tool.

nick,
      you assume that someone would want to work for you after  you just posted that you cant have working or economic relationships  with your friends or family.      you waste alot of time throwing heavy judgements around at folk.    do you think that makes the fog a better place?
                                                        bill

Bill,

If I were new to woodworking (and many newbies read this site) and didn't know any better, and read your post about leaving the bladegaurd pinned,  I may do the same, taking advice from a seasoned pro, thinking it is a better way to work like a pro.  If no one disputed your view, I might think it was a safe and better way to run a miter saw, and the probable resulting accident would change my life forever (And believe me, I have seen plenty of life changing accidents with 30 years in the medical field).  So I think Nick's opinion about it being unsafe should be welcomed.  What your suggesting as "OK"  is extreeme and unsafe.  Thats why a union site would shut you down....  this practice,  pinning the blade gaurd up,  will,  without a doubt,  cause more serious accidents than doing the obvious...leaving the gaurd in place.  If you want to run your saw that way, so be it.  However I wouldn't get your feathers ruffled if many don't aggree with your views.  Nick's opinion on safety should be welcomed.  If others on this site disaggree with the way you work, its not  a personal attack on you, rather its a different opinion on the safety practice itself.

As for doing work for family and friends,  For me, frendships are more important than money,  If I work for them... I do it for free...and even then you take a risk... usually everything is fine but when you mix business with friends they usually want something for nothing (They don't actually say that outloud).  Before I do business with friends I ask myself... is loosing this friend ok if  something goes wrong... then I work for free as a gift...  I am lucky that I don't have to rely on woodworking income to put food on the table.

My opinion, peace out.......

iam sorry is pulling the thread off so far.
i agree, guards should be in place on union and large jobsites.  never said otherwise, never would.  if you believe i'm sugesting something is "ok" please reread my posts.   
everyone welcomes opinions on the fog, the problem is when people start with the thinly cloaked  personal attacts.  what i'm refering to is obvious here.
  i made my initial post in relerence to hdk needing to return his kapex with guard problems  (he did the right thing)
 
i will say it for the  5th  time (in so many words) so it is extra crystal clear;
    please do not remove, disable, or hinder in any way, the guards, shields or safety devices supplied with your tools.

      bill 
 
 
MiterMaster said:
honeydokreg said:
another decision time.  my festool rep called me yesterday and said that he fixed the saw as the guard had just came out of the track....... why did this happen in the first place... and do I want to go and pick this one up again?

Tell the Festool Rep to personally deliver the saw back to you, free of charge!
Mike

I agree with Mike.  Great suggestion.

 
honeydokreg said:
another decision time.  my festool rep called me yesterday and said that he fixed the saw as the guard had just came out of the track....... why did this happen in the first place... and do I want to go and pick this one up again?

the turntable worked great the few days I had it.... but will the guard pop out again?

this drives me crazy.

  Fatal Attraction  :P  

and do I want to go and pick this one up again?   No !  just get a beater saw till the next (improved) wave comes out of production.

I'll add that I have no real useful input as I have not even seen a Kapex yet.  :o
 
honeydokreg said:
another decision time.  my festool rep called me yesterday and said that he fixed the saw as the guard had just came out of the track....... why did this happen in the first place... and do I want to go and pick this one up again?

the turntable worked great the few days I had it.... but will the guard pop out again?

this drives me crazy.
Do not go back and pick this one up. Get your money back and forget about the saw forever. You are never going to be happy with these saws so just move on to something else.

Dave
 
That's one thing I love about that blood red laser. If it ain't hitting your fingers, you're safe. I'm not going to say anything about pinned guards.
 
Come on, Eli, "help" me out here...! There's more issue than meet the eye here...... :)
 
spikfot said:
  blade guards are the first thing i modify (remove) when i buy a chop saw.  i find they work better left in the box.
   

I'm rather fond of my fingers.  I've known toooooo many people that took short cuts and paid for it.

Your insurance may not cover you for such a modification.
 
Kreg, sorry to hear your bad luck with the kapex continued.
I actually had more issues with our makita ls1013 than with my kapex, which was similar priced back then as the kapex is now. (fence that cracked, slide lock not working anymore).
Issues with my kapex sofar: lasers not staying dead on when the saw is moved, I had to adjust the saw's miter gauge after about 6 months of use, I recently noticed the table inserts cupping slightly.
My guess is you have the larger makita saw, since the 1013 weighs exactly the same as the kapex.

Main reason I wanted the kapex in the first place is that it adressed some (mostly minor) issues that bothered me after years of using the makita: the times when I had to set it up in a narrow hallway, and couldn?t back it up against the wall; the way I had wrap the cord around the saw, having to reach around the saw to adjust the bevel sighting the blade to a angle transfer thing, only to find out I forgot to move the upper piece of the fence, so I had to start over, because you can only move those with the saw at 900; the hold down clamp that was so annoying I didn't bother using it; the table extensions that got bend upwards after someone used them as carry-handles; the only two times I had to install crown (as an exterior detail, never had to do crown inside) I had to research the bevel and miter 0 for cutting it on the flat, while the kapex could have cut those in position;...

and off course the nifty angle divider that stores in the saw  ;)(which I understand is useless for finish carpenters in the US, who work with cutlists, but when I have to run base I cut them piece by piece anyway(I first have to scrape the plasterwork, and the long walls can't be cut out of 1 piece of base).

I still use the Makita for exterior work, because it?s much quicker to set up in combination with the Dewalt stand, and it isn?t as sensitive to moisture (unlike the mdf of the mft800); and the kapex extension wings also make my CS70 more likely to be used instead of bringing in an extra cms when I need to do rips anyway. But when I do use the kapex, it still puts a silly grin on my face.

I am very happy with my kapex, but if I lived in the US, and the price difference with others saws was that big, I probably wouldn?t have gotten it  in the first place, but multiple other saws instead, like for instance a non sliding 12?, and a smaller slider, which both would be lighter than the kapex, and would be less expensive total.  (Or the new Milwaukee, with which you can dial in the mitersetting, and also has good dustcollection (but is heavier, and lacks the lasers))

In your case, your patience so far has shown you really want one (that works), and in that case I would get the last one you had. I don?t think it?s likely there will be a complete redesign (or KapexII as they say) and if (God forbid) other issues would show, they will be corrected within the 3 year warranty.

Anyway, what I really wanted to ask before I got carried away...
Those improved inserts, that are supposed to solve th cupping issue, do they look the same as the old ones, or are there significant differences? (My guess would be a little more play, shorter inserts with larger holes for the screws)
 
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