waho6o9 said:
I do not believe that kickback is possible if the blade is allowed to come to rest after making the cut and before lifting the arm. I always do this and you can check it in my videos.
Peter
Kapex is destroyed
- Thread starter TetonStorm
- Start date
I do not believe that kickback is possible if the blade is allowed to come to rest after making the cut and before lifting the arm. I always do this and you can check it in my videos.
Peter
Mr Heavy
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A problem I've had in the past - mainly with high-end camera and audio equipment - is that if something is faulty from new and one accepts a repair, then under English law one has effectively waived all rights to replacement.
I bought a Bronica SLR many years ago that wouldn't sync with studio flash and the dealer simply refused to acknowledge that there was a problem. The camera spent six years going back and forth between me and the importers, the despicable Apparatus and Instrument CO, and kept coming back to me with the problem persisting before I had it back in good order. Yes, lawyers were involved, as were Trading Standards via Citizens Advice Bureau but once the damn thing was out of my hands it seems I hadn't a leg to stand on. Had I simply stood my ground and invoked SOGA for an immediate replacement I would have avoided literally years of anguish. I was young at the time and not as sanguine as I am now
There's another horror story involving a tape deck that spent several years out of my hands being serially badly "repaired" under warranty which I'll not bore you with but my rule now is simple:
NEVER accept a repair in stead of a replacement; not ever.
I bought a Bronica SLR many years ago that wouldn't sync with studio flash and the dealer simply refused to acknowledge that there was a problem. The camera spent six years going back and forth between me and the importers, the despicable Apparatus and Instrument CO, and kept coming back to me with the problem persisting before I had it back in good order. Yes, lawyers were involved, as were Trading Standards via Citizens Advice Bureau but once the damn thing was out of my hands it seems I hadn't a leg to stand on. Had I simply stood my ground and invoked SOGA for an immediate replacement I would have avoided literally years of anguish. I was young at the time and not as sanguine as I am now
There's another horror story involving a tape deck that spent several years out of my hands being serially badly "repaired" under warranty which I'll not bore you with but my rule now is simple:
NEVER accept a repair in stead of a replacement; not ever.
Brice Burrell
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Peter Parfitt said:
Peter, I don't know how much experience you have with miter saws, but I can tell you from my nearly 25 years in the trades that letting the blade come to a complete stop doesn't prevent pieces from flying. The vast majority of the time a cutoff goes flying it takes flight the very instant it is cut free. Also, people believe lifting the blade with saw running has an adverse effect on cut quality. Again, my countless hours in front of a miter saw does not show this to be true. My opinion is that letting the blade come to a full stop before lifting the saw head has no appreciable impact on safety or cut quality.
Hi Brice
I appreciate your advice based on your years of experience but base my comment on my own experience. I have had some "interesting" flying wood experiences before taking the advice from someone here on the FOG (I regret I cannot remember who) to try the method that I described. I have not had a problem since.
As far as I can tell the idea is that the ejection of the cut piece is caused primarily by it starting to fall away and then being caught by the teeth of the lifting blade. Using the method I described, the friction from the polished side of a saw blade coming to rest has little adverse affect on the cut piece.
Peter
I appreciate your advice based on your years of experience but base my comment on my own experience. I have had some "interesting" flying wood experiences before taking the advice from someone here on the FOG (I regret I cannot remember who) to try the method that I described. I have not had a problem since.
As far as I can tell the idea is that the ejection of the cut piece is caused primarily by it starting to fall away and then being caught by the teeth of the lifting blade. Using the method I described, the friction from the polished side of a saw blade coming to rest has little adverse affect on the cut piece.
Peter
Rollin22Petes
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First of I mean no disrespect to anyone but this is one of those situations were I see a divide between us professional woodworkers and hobbiest. As a 2nd generation professional woodworker we use or tools under different circumstances and experience levels. Not to say there is a definitive right or wrong we just our tools in different situations just my [2cents]. By the way peter if you are reading this I love your videos on tool reviews have cost money on more than one occasion ;D . Keep up the good work
Cheese
Member
Rollin22Petes said:
So, I'm curious how a professional woodworker would use a Kapex. Contrast how you would use the Kapex compared to the hobbyiest. Just looking for some pointers. [smile]
It is interesting than one responder noted that such a mishap even bent the motor shaft in his machine. A month or so ago, i happened to try sawing the end of a steel T-channel. It was an old one from when they were a little thicker than i think they are now. I have a hitch 8-1/2" SCMS, and when that blade ht the steel, there was a noise (blast) not too much less significant than when my old shotgun used to fire. The saw did kick back, the wood piece split and flew against the saw fence. The only damage was to the blade (full kerf 60T) which lost four teeth. The surprising thing to me was that the broken teeth were not all consecutive, but, two together and the other two scattered along the circumference. I checked the saw fence and it was still, as close as I can measure, dead on straight.
I have, in another life, run my old Milwaukee circular saw with many teeth missing. I tried my SCMS to see if blade wobbled. NO problem. I tried cutting a piec of pine. NO problem. I tried cutting the end off of a piece of maple. NO problem In each case, the cut was as smooth as ever. Even so, i was tempted to put my back up blade on the saw, but it was a very cheep looking thin kerf. I tried finding another full kerf blade over internet. I think it is only Forest who makes full kerf for that sized saw. That blade would cost almost as much as to replace the saw. I guess I will stick with that old gap toothed blade for now.
I am now wondering what might have happened had i run into that piece of steel with a Kapex. the Kapex is 10X's the cost of a Hitachi slider, so it would (theoretically) probably destroy itself [huh]
Tinker
I have, in another life, run my old Milwaukee circular saw with many teeth missing. I tried my SCMS to see if blade wobbled. NO problem. I tried cutting a piec of pine. NO problem. I tried cutting the end off of a piece of maple. NO problem In each case, the cut was as smooth as ever. Even so, i was tempted to put my back up blade on the saw, but it was a very cheep looking thin kerf. I tried finding another full kerf blade over internet. I think it is only Forest who makes full kerf for that sized saw. That blade would cost almost as much as to replace the saw. I guess I will stick with that old gap toothed blade for now.
I am now wondering what might have happened had i run into that piece of steel with a Kapex. the Kapex is 10X's the cost of a Hitachi slider, so it would (theoretically) probably destroy itself [huh]
Tinker
Rollin22Petes
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For me personally it's the backer board although there are situations they are very helpful or even required depending on what you may be cutting. Having said that whether I'm working in the shop or on site trimming a house they are pretty much useless as most of the time I'm cutting so many different angles at 90 degrees and compounds that the backer just becomes chewed and useless from all the saw kerfs it's just faster and easier for me to deal with an occasional piece being ejected. On a side note cutting crown in the nested position is usually the worst about it especially when the piece you needed was only an 1'' wide hope this helps
Yes, this is true. I like to preserve my sacrificial "backer boards" and open up the rear fence when doing an angled cut. This can then allow those smaller pieces to get caught but stopping before withdrawing does solve the problem.
Peter
Peter
I'm not sure what was meant by professional use and hobby use being different. Maybe he was intimating that professionals know better (I don't know what he meant that is just my interpretation). I am a professional (45 years) and I am with Peter on this one. There is far less chance of kickback if you let the blade stop before lifting the blade. By the way, Peter, I really enjoy your videos. They are well made.
I think by "professional" one really means " production" as many hobbyists work in a professional manner but nut in a production environment. For instance, working with 4 or 5 other carpenters trimming out a 10,000 sq ft house. The saw is being turned on dozens of times and mitered and beveled and moved from task to task. Not every cut can be patiently set up. The kapex sends small pieces flying in my personal experience with enough force to bend the blade and break things. And yes if I am making a vertical cut with a small cut off I let the blade come to a stop.
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Rip Van Winkle said:
This still doesn't make it a warranty issue. The windage from the spinning blade can draw a small off-cut into the blade. It's mentioned in several places in the manual. Steps can be taken by the operator to minimize the likelihood, but there are too many variables to ever say it can be 100% prevented. It is a function of all miter saws, and especially dual-bevel miter saws due to the required throat opening.
People have talked about not raising the blade until it is completely stopped. While this is correct, there is actually more to the story than just that. It is also important to make sure that the blade is all the way down at the conclusion of the cut. Some woodworkers may tend to hold the blade at the same position as when it finished the cut, but don't continue to lower the blade toward its mechanical depth limit. This leaves many of the blade teeth (and more importantly, their windage) exposed above the table. The teeth and their subsequent windage, are still in contact with the side of a small, unconstrained offcut. It won't catch every time, but it is increasing the likelihood for it to happen.
A zero-clearance fence is one of the best solutions for reducing the likelihood of a kickback, with one very big caveat. If there is enough of a gap between the blade and the fence for a small offcut (or worse, a wedge offcut) to get between the blade and the fence, then the kickback can be even worse because there isn't any place for the kickback to go.
Birdhunter
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I'm one of those "hobby guys" so my input should be discounted. But, before I wised up to the rule to keep the blade fully depressed until totally stopped, I had a few flying pieces and a few kick backs. Since I wised up, I've had zero flying pieces and zero kick backs.
Greg M
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Birdhunter said:
This "professional" (don't know if I'm considered a pro or hobby guy), who does some woodworking in the process of remodel work (cabinets, vanities, built-ins, trim, sheetrock, flooring, painting, HVAC, plumbing, electrical, roofing, framing, etc), thanks you for your comment. I can't remember ever having a piece go flying until I got the Kapex. Never had to pay attention to stopping the blade before lifting it or making sure that I held it in the completely down position until stopped.
I will adjust how I use the Kapex to help reduce the chances of flying projectiles because I really like the dust collection. However, I've got one question for Festool, which is more dangerous, flying wood or dust?
waho6o9
Member
"It is also important to make sure that the blade is all the way down at the conclusion of the cut."
That's good to know thank you Rick!
That's good to know thank you Rick!
Well only the kapex has this problem. I have used virtually every miter saw there is and have had very few small pieces flying except when using the kapex. No one is discounting the hobbyist opinion but saws are used in different environments. Maybe the kapex is for use in a precise controlled environment, but not for the production environment.
I DO think it is operator error in this. While I'm sure people can say they DID NOT lift the saw head after the conclusion of the cut, and that they DID wait for the blade to fully stop I personally don't believe that is accurate. I have owned 6 Kapex's, 2 Currently, numerous DeWalts and Makita's and I have had kick back that broke parts and I can honestly say they are from ME raising the saw head with the blade still spinning and small cut off's on the saw base. It's not about blaming one person or the other, but really... try and understand what you are saying. The saw just spins a damn blade. Where's the design flaw that some of you mention. There are several blade manufacturers for the saw so you can try other blades, it has a fence, a base, they are for the most part at 90 degree's to each other. The blade spins and can be mitered and beveled. Where the hell is the flaw in that???
It's only my opinion... But I believe all you master saw users that have never had a single issue before now, do so because of the Electric brake on the Kapex, which is also a fairly new feature on other brands. If you think about when a small piece gets kicked back on a table saw, etc. it's when the blade has slowed and not generally at full speed (think about that piece trapped between the table saw rip fence and blade that you for some reason can't clear. I think it's that the blade is slowing and is prone to pick those pieces up and throw them, and yes it is because you lifted the saw head. You may not have intended to, and you may not think you did... but you did. I don't see this as a flaw, but may be different than what you are used to operating. There are benefits to having the electric brake and your methods should change accordingly.
I guess we could do some experiments lifting the head a full speed, etc. and see when the issue occurs, but I have years of experience and many thousands of cuts with the Kapex and DeWalt and other saws. I have had the issue with the Kapex and know it was I that lifted the saw head before it stopped. Show me a video of it kicking that piece up with the saw head down and/or it happening to me and maybe I'll change my mind, but fact is it won't. Sure it's nice to have someone pay for our mistakes, but c'mon. I know it's an expensive saw and I would buy them all over again because I absolutely love working with the Kapex vs the miter saws I worked with in the past.
There are issues cutting small moldings where the piece will practically explode when mitering and it's not that it's just the Kapex that does it as you'll read in some of the links below. I have personally had great fortune cutting these small moldings by beveling, rather than mitering. I don't know technically why but in real practical terms it makes a huge difference. I can probably make a video of that phenomena if anyone cares.
Again... It shouldn't be about blaming a tool that just spins a blade, but rather what can be done to minimize and or help prevent the recurrence of the kick back issues.
Just to see that there are more than Kapex users that have issues with kickback, you don't have to search hard.
https://forum.canadianwoodworking.com/showthread.php?21204-Mitre-saw-kick-back-sore-finger!!
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/MiterSaw_Kickback_Injury_Story.html
http://www.diychatroom.com/f14/miter-saw-kickback-oak-quarter-round-129117/
http://www.woodtalkonline.com/topic/12477-miter-saw-kickback/
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?9930-Miter-saw-kick-back-problem
http://lumberjocks.com/topics/13849
It's only my opinion... But I believe all you master saw users that have never had a single issue before now, do so because of the Electric brake on the Kapex, which is also a fairly new feature on other brands. If you think about when a small piece gets kicked back on a table saw, etc. it's when the blade has slowed and not generally at full speed (think about that piece trapped between the table saw rip fence and blade that you for some reason can't clear. I think it's that the blade is slowing and is prone to pick those pieces up and throw them, and yes it is because you lifted the saw head. You may not have intended to, and you may not think you did... but you did. I don't see this as a flaw, but may be different than what you are used to operating. There are benefits to having the electric brake and your methods should change accordingly.
I guess we could do some experiments lifting the head a full speed, etc. and see when the issue occurs, but I have years of experience and many thousands of cuts with the Kapex and DeWalt and other saws. I have had the issue with the Kapex and know it was I that lifted the saw head before it stopped. Show me a video of it kicking that piece up with the saw head down and/or it happening to me and maybe I'll change my mind, but fact is it won't. Sure it's nice to have someone pay for our mistakes, but c'mon. I know it's an expensive saw and I would buy them all over again because I absolutely love working with the Kapex vs the miter saws I worked with in the past.
There are issues cutting small moldings where the piece will practically explode when mitering and it's not that it's just the Kapex that does it as you'll read in some of the links below. I have personally had great fortune cutting these small moldings by beveling, rather than mitering. I don't know technically why but in real practical terms it makes a huge difference. I can probably make a video of that phenomena if anyone cares.
Again... It shouldn't be about blaming a tool that just spins a blade, but rather what can be done to minimize and or help prevent the recurrence of the kick back issues.
Just to see that there are more than Kapex users that have issues with kickback, you don't have to search hard.
https://forum.canadianwoodworking.com/showthread.php?21204-Mitre-saw-kick-back-sore-finger!!
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/MiterSaw_Kickback_Injury_Story.html
http://www.diychatroom.com/f14/miter-saw-kickback-oak-quarter-round-129117/
http://www.woodtalkonline.com/topic/12477-miter-saw-kickback/
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?9930-Miter-saw-kick-back-problem
http://lumberjocks.com/topics/13849
