KAPEX Poll regarding motor

[Johncarlo]

I really don't think the problem with the Kapex is start up speed, vacuum type, abuse, power, etc...

It's a motor issue!! A $1900 saw with a poorly designed motor!!

How many more saws will die before Festool steps up and comes up with a real fix..?

 

[Cheese]

I really don't think the problem with the Kapex is start up speed, vacuum type, abuse, power, etc...

It's a motor issue!! A $1900 saw with a poorly designed motor!!

You are correct, and Festool is fully aware of the problem...however as it was explained to me, they don't know if it's a vendor issue or if it's a design issue. And unfortunately that puts the problem in the Bermuda Triangle arena which means it may or may not be solved.

 

[rowka]

How could it possibly be a vendor issue?

 

[semenza]

How could it possibly be a vendor issue?

Hi,

  Welcome to the forum!  [smile]

      I think Cheese probably means vendor of a part of the tool.

Seth

 

[Cheese]

I think Cheese probably means vendor of a part of the tool.

So first things first...[welcome] to the FOG.

Seth nailed it, very few manufacturers are vertically integrated. Meaning, (as an example) Festool doesn't fabricate the individual parts themselves and then assemble the parts to make equipment, rather, they sublet the parts to be manufactured out to various manufacturing entities and they rely on the integrity of their vendors, the robustness of the engineering specification and the correct sampling level in the QA (quality analysis) process to determine the winner of that sublet bid, it is usually determined by price or delivery or both.

FWIW...The only manufacturing group that is vertically integrated is the mechanical watch industry. Rolex in particular, which means each and every part is produced in-house so that they have total control over every part that hits the production floor. This is an extremely costly process and thus why 99% of the manufacturing facilities do not follow this example.

So, the question Festool asks in those brainstorming sessions, that I would love to be a part of...is the design of the saw compromised or are the supplied parts compromised? The old chicken or the egg conundrum.

 

[Davesbuildtips]

A question for all who are responding to this thread. Are you using the kapex with a festool vac or another brand or no vac at all? I ask because I believe that the Festool vacs maintain a constant power supply to the kapex when it is under load and Third party vacs do not.

If you use a third party vac you likely plug your saw it into the wall and not the vac.

Just about every shop vac has an automatic powerpoint on it these days. The Kapex has MMC electronics which is supposed to deliver power under load. I was under the impression that the festool vacs worked in harmony with MMC. Third party vacs MAY not. How many people would plug into a wall if the cheap third party vac has auto on in the offer?

 

[Holmz]

A question for all who are responding to this thread. Are you using the kapex with a festool vac or another brand or no vac at all? I ask because I believe that the Festool vacs maintain a constant power supply to the kapex when it is under load and Third party vacs do not.

If you use a third party vac you likely plug your saw it into the wall and not the vac.

Just about every shop vac has an automatic powerpoint on it these days. The Kapex has MMC electronics which is supposed to deliver power under load. I was under the impression that the festool vacs worked in harmony with MMC. Third party vacs MAY not. How many people would plug into a wall if the cheap third party vac has auto on in the offer?

In harmony or harmonics?
It is effectively like plugging it into the wall, it should not be black magic or require Maxwell's understanding of electricity and magnetics.

 

[Gregor]

Just about every shop vac has an automatic powerpoint on it these days. The Kapex has MMC electronics which is supposed to deliver power under load. I was under the impression that the festool vacs worked in harmony with MMC. Third party vacs MAY not. How many people would plug into a wall if the cheap third party vac has auto on in the offer?

The minimal electronics needed to implement auto-on with delayed-off for a vac consist basically of a coil around one wire of the live socket for the tool (to detect power flow through it through induction), a transistor (that amplifies the induced current from that coil) that drives a triac (switching the line voltage to the vac motor), a capacitor (to keep driving the triac for a while after the transistor switched off) and a few resistors (to limit currents so the transistor survives). Total material cost

 

[Xoncention]

Just about every shop vac has an automatic powerpoint on it these days. The Kapex has MMC electronics which is supposed to deliver power under load. I was under the impression that the festool vacs worked in harmony with MMC. Third party vacs MAY not. How many people would plug into a wall if the cheap third party vac has auto on in the offer?

I have a Virutex vacuum that works just fine with an auto on/off with my Kapex plugged into the front of the machine.  Although they are not matched as well as I would like (there is a second longer delay at startup) - and an even longer one when the Kapex is turned off.  They work mostly in harmony.  8)

 

[Dochawthorne]

My kapex has always been used with festool vac first ct22 and now ct36 I'm a professional carpenter that's why I spent the $ my tools make me $. My saw was about 4.5 years old and I was working out of town and it would barely run Sparks, smoke. I sent it in and festool pretty much rebuilt it and didn't charge me a dime I was very happy with service and that I had spent $ on that saw. Last week I was working out of town again and kapex did it again Sparks, smoke so I lost a day of work had to drive an hour to buy new makita and stand to finish the week and then an hour back to job. It has only been around a year sense my kapex was rebuilt. I'm taking it in this week so we will see what happens if it's going to be $900 to fix I will be selling 7 or 8 blades kapex stand and Fastcap out feeds and using the makita I just bought.

 

[Holmz]

Just about every shop vac has an automatic powerpoint on it these days. The Kapex has MMC electronics which is supposed to deliver power under load. I was under the impression that the festool vacs worked in harmony with MMC. Third party vacs MAY not. How many people would plug into a wall if the cheap third party vac has auto on in the offer?

I have a Virutex vacuum that works just fine with an auto on/off with my Kapex plugged into the front of the machine.  Although they are not matched as well as I would like (there is a second longer delay at startup) - and an even longer one when the Kapex is turned off.  They work mostly in harmony.  8)

^Yours is a shop I would like to see^... (between the variety of tools, and your work.)

 

[Acrobat]

Sent mine in for a service about a year or so ago, as it was not cutting correctly at mating 45's, and the base is not flat to the sides and the dust extraction is not what i was led to believe. I still have to do a clean up.  Motor is and has always been fine.
Nearly always hooked up to a festool vac.
I really like using this saw but I'm a DIYer so it isn't getting a thrashing as a full on job site everyday use saw would. Had it a few years now.

 

[Huxleywood]

[/quote]

FWIW...The only manufacturing group that is vertically integrated is the mechanical watch industry. Rolex in particular, which means each and every part is produced in-house so that they have total control over every part that hits the production floor. This is an extremely costly process and thus why 99% of the manufacturing facilities do not follow this example.

[/quote]

Don't forget Grand Seiko, even more in-house than Rolex, down to producing their own lubricants and ink to print their manuals.  But in any event, highly vertical integration only works on either a massive scale or very high margin items like Veblen goods.  Rolex is somewhat both since they produce more mechanical watches than any other manufactrer (save possibly the Chines cheapy market) and GS is most likely a halo product sold at very low or no margin.  The higher end watches can't support this level of vertical integration.

Honestly, if it weren't for the "motor issue" I would probably own a Kapex but not making a living with it and mainly using a CSMS to break down lumber it would be a mere luxury, while not against that sort of thing in my shop the niggling of a potential motor meltdown keeps me from replacing my Milwaukee when the Kapex can't do the jobs I ask of a CSMS any better.  Now if I made a living with it making precision cuts on site I think I would probably roll the dice, just the difference in weight hauling it in and out would be enough to pay the roughly 50 cents a work day over the course of the 3 year warranty. 

 

[Cheese]

...the niggling of a potential motor meltdown keeps me from replacing my Milwaukee when the Kapex can't do the jobs I ask of a CSMS any better.

Nothing wrong with the Milwaukee slider, I've used one for over 20 years with a Forrest blade and never had an issue. The only reason I switched to Kapex is because as I get older, the Milwaukee gets heavier and clumsier.  [eek]

FWIW...the Milwaukee has cut wood, plastic, aluminum, 1/2" thick copper, brick, cement board strips and some steel and she still rocks with the original armature, field coils and brushes.

Come on Festool...you can do better...over the last 6-8 years, materials have improved, manufacturing methods have improved, FEA analysis along with QA analysis have improved, so where are the stumbling blocks?  Just camp on the vendors' doorstep and don't accept anything less than a viable answer for the Kapex electrical motor issues.

Hey Festool, think of it this way...it's only your manufacturing reputation that's at risk.

 

[Tyler Ernsberger]

Im definitely considering the Kapex.  I am really worried about the motor issues that I have read about on FoG and Festool hasn't said anything to reassure me that the motor will last.  I will be using the Kapex everyday and don't want a $1400 paper weight.  My miter saw just died the other day and I'm using my back up.  My plan was to buy myself a new miter saw for Christmas.  Not sure what I'm going to do. 

 

[Kev]

I have a ~4 year zero issue DIY use 240V KAPEX.

I love the KAPEX features, but I'd probably look to something different if I was setting up a fixed mitre station .. as a portable with the UG cart it's a winner on features.

Price and longevity always have to be factored against productivity if it's a business (or personal cost saving) application .. and against enjoyment or if it's for pleasure.

Looking into some of the patterns ... a reasonable number of failures across the globe would be expected. The seemingly high number of US 110V failures appear to have impacted a cross section of machines that could very well relate to a vendor component failure (I say this due to the very reliable testimony of several long term 110V KAPEX users on this forum having zero issues).

We won't know the facts unless Festool share them and we may never know.

If you were to buy a 110V KAPEX in the US right now I'd highly doubt that you'd get anything other that exceptional service if you had an issue.

 

[Johncarlo]

Is it worth spending a large amount of money on a saw that might be a 50/50 chance of being a lemon? I can't justify the repair at this point. I own a very large and expensive paper weight, any buyers? No one knows the real numbers but Festool. If this was a safety issue with the saw there would be no problem. Recall! No one gets hurt from a motor issue... well only our wallet. 

 

[cabinetman803]

No motor problems here.  I bought my Kapex about 4 years ago and have run it with my CT26 the whole time.  Had to send the saw back once because the saw head would go down with the cut but would not spring back up.  Had to manually lift it back up. 
Fast forward a year later and noticed that my miters weren't quite right.  The "Stop" (part 103) on Ekat is not linear.  Called the service department and was told I need to send it in.  "Probably a user issue"  I guess my cabinet shop is so hot in the summer time that it bent a cast metal part.  [scared]
Since i'm past the warranty, I get to be without a saw and shell out a couple hundred dollars to get it fixed.
Other than that, I love the saw. 

 

[Gregor]

Is it worth spending a large amount of money on a saw that might be a 50/50 chance of being a lemon?

My Domino XL burned out after making ~1k mortices. Why would I get another since they are 100% lemons (deducting from the sample size of the one I had).  [embarassed]

Seriously: can we please stop pulling numbers out of thin air?

Find someone trustworthy here on the forum, then each and everyone having had a problem with the Kapex can supply a photo of the serial number tag (this contains the product#, serial number and production date) and copies of the invoice (purchase date and location) and repair bill from service (even when it's 0.00, since it lists what has been done). That one could then build some statistics about all them to look for correlation (bad batch when produced, problems related to a certain kind only, whatever).

Simply stating some made-up numbers without any relation to reality isn't helpful.

 

[antss]

Gregor - seems the whole point of this thread is to give some sort quantification to the group.

No other Festool has the sort of complaints that the 110v Kapex does.  If dominos start failing in significant numbers , I'm sure we will hear about it.  I am assuming yours was fixed under warranty ?  If you had to pay for the repair and it cost you 50% of the tool's cost or more - would you be happy ?

Additionally, if there was an alternative to domino and it cost half as much and lasted twice to ten times as long as your domino - would you be happy then ?

This is why people on this side of the pond are unhappy.  Kapex dying early does not seem to be a fluke, or isolated incident. This saw is very expensive in comparison to the competition and a 3-5 year lifespan does not reflect well on a company that positions themselves as the top of the pile.  Festool has cryptically hinted there may be an issue but has not been forthcoming with details in a timely manner. So , there does appear to be a smoking gun.

Even if the problems are an outlier, the perception is that this saw does not last anywhere near its price tag would suggest - which is the most expensive priced saw of its type in this market.