Kapex tear out issues... Frustrated and disapppointed with Festool

[Audiophile20]

First off I am a huge fan of Festool - What do I own -- 3MFt tables, 2 saws (small and large), 2 Vacs (Small and large), 2 routers 1400 and 1100, trim router, Kapex with rails, Domino (amazing machine!) and a sundry of consumables/accessories.  I have owned Festool products since they were a small operation out of CA.  Given the investment to date, I would like to think my expectation that I be provided one or more intelligent solutions and be treated with respect is appropriate.  Please note this is not an indictment on a company but a problem with the most expensive tool from Festool in my collection.

Here is the situation:
- Purchased a Kapex for my hobby shop.  Replacing my Dewalt DCM with Festool.
- Minimal use ... I build maybe 4 pieces of furniture every six months!!!!  Very low volume.
- Key reasons for buying Kapex:  Cut accuracy, dust collection, other functionality, Festool build quality and customer service.
- As seen in the picture below the tear out at the back of the piece is horrible.  I am using hard maple making some furniture for my home.
- Given the bad tear out, I have tried using other wood - cherry and Baltic birch plywood (3/4 birch).  Still the same result.
- Please note I am using the stock blade that come with the saw.  At time of purchase I was told that was all I would need.

Actions to date:
- Called Customer Support and was told that the only thing they can think of is the wood is too dry!!!
- So I asked for a solution, I was told that there were simply too many factors to account for this and they were not sure it was not a problem with the wood I am using.  So NO SOLUTION.
- I called my Festool dealer, who was kind enough to offer (Oops! missed a word here! Kind of critical  [embarassed]  Sorry!) to take the saw back.  Thank you for that!!! These guys in MA are awesome!
- My dealer contacted the area rep for Festool who thought my blade might be bad.  But was not sure he wanted to recommend I purchase a new blade as he was unsure that will solve the problem.

What do I do?  ???
1. Am I the only one that has this problem?  Surely someone else has tear out issues.  Maybe the saw does not work well on hard maple purchased the state of MA - sorry my sarcasm know no bound now.  Maybe in the town I live in, the air is too dry for Kapex to give me a clean cut?
3.  I was told by my dealer that they will try and get the rep to come in and maybe I can bring the saw in to the dealer for a check-up.  That was 30-days ago and no news yet.
4. Do I spend another $100+ on a new blade?  when Festool reps are not sure this is going to work ... really crazy!  I have done the research and maybe the Tenyru blade might be better?
5. I have researched the FOG, YouTube, etc. one solution maybe to use an auxiliary fence then you cannot use the hold down clamp?  What do I use it for paperweight? 

Here again my sarcasm takes over -- Then Festool should clearly say, PLEASE USE ADDITIONAL FENCE AS CUTS WILL NOT BE CLEAN WITHOUT IT.  Please do not advertise as being able to get smooth cuts every time.  Or please list the moisture rating that the shop needs to have for Kapex to work well.

NOTE:  I am avoiding using names on this post to maintain privacy.  If you need details please reach out to me via email.

Things to consider:
1. I did not want to post in public and make a big deal about this and was hoping to get this resolved offline.  But sadly all I am being told is deal with it.  I see no alternative to posting and making this public.  Contrary to all the good customer service posts here, I want to make the case that Festool is now a big company in the US now and their customer service is suffering but their MARKETING is thriving.  Maybe there are some people at Festool who still care about customers ... but I am yet to meet them.

[attachimg=1]

After the purchase:  Significant tear out on cuts and frustration as Festool is unable to do anything and has suggested maybe the wood I am using is the problem!  maybe the wood is too dry!!!  Seriously?  When the same piece of wood cut with my Dewalt has no tear outs.

Net net: 

Festool has sold me a $1400 so-so MiterSaw and with a good vac attachment!!!  Hope someone here who has gone through this will have a suggestion that will cure my Kapex's ailment.

Do I miss the days when you can call Christian and have an intelligent conversation!!!  Maybe I should call Christian and complain  ???  Miss living in Europe at least I could have called from Sweden to Germany would have been easier...

Thank you for reading...Any suggestions to try would be most welcome.

 

[#Tee]

umm i get the same thing cutting polar/walnut/maple on mine. thats why ppl make zero clearance back support. Even on my dewalt dw713 on a 80tooth freud blade same thing.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

Ever clean the blade?  Ever sharpen the blade? 

I don't really understand how this is the saws fault. 

 

[Phil Beckley]

Hi
A false fence on the back will resolve the break out. As the blade cuts through, the false fence will support the fibres from the force of the teeth cutting - standard practice.
rg
Phil

 

[#Tee]

can you make a video of the kapex vs your dewalt cut as is? meaning no additional fences or blade changing and cut the same piece of stock.

 

[bkharman]

I get your disappointment mate... I really do.

The reason I never went with the Kapex is that it is a) pricey, b) not a necessity for me and c) seems to be one of the most talked about tools on this and other forums (both very positive and many who have been frustrated).

I bought a Hitachi slider that I have been very happy with.  On it, as well as my older DeWalt saw, I put a sacrificial fence behind it and in the throat insert.  I dont get tear out all that often as a result.  Same thing with routing, i might have the best setup in the world, but will I put a sacrificial piece behind it?  Every time.

I wish you the best on this and hope you get it resolved sooner than later.

cheers.  Bryan.

 

[mark60]

Your dealer took the saw back but you still have a problem with the quality of cut and consider buying a new blade. I know I'm new to festool and the forum but I'm confused.

 

[Birdhunter]

The picture shows a degree of tear our I have never seen in 2 years use of my Kapex cutting a wide range of wood.

I use a zero clearance insert and a backing board and never get this degree of tear out. Even before I added the zero clearance insert, I never saw this degree of tear out even cutting plywood.

If I saw this in one of my cuts, I'd guess I had either a dull/fouled blade or a degree of misalignment.

 

[Harvey]

I'd clean the blade. If that didn't work I would send the saw in with an offcut & let Festool worry about it. Shipping both ways & repair is free under the three year warranty.

 

[peter halle]

First, welcome to the Forum. Sorry to read about your situation.  Tear out is pretty normal in various degrees based on the cutter or blade's sharpness and even wood species.  A backing board or sacrificial fence or piece to support the wood fibers to allow them to be cut cleanly is also fairly normal.  Even feed rate can come into play.

I certainly know that in my case when I see tear out increasing I am looking at my blade first.  And just because it feels sharp to my soft thumb doesn't mean that it is sharp to the wood I'm cutting.

Peter - Kapex owner since 2010.  Finish carpenter since 1983.

 

[vidkid26]

You might try changing the speed.

 

[Gary in Texas]

This is no different than having a backing board when cutting on a table saw, a miter saw, or in many routing operations.  The wood needs support when/where the blade comes through during cutting.

You would benefit from having a zero clearance throat plate as well as a zero clearance fence.  Both help eliminate tear out.  There are a number of threads on this forum on this subject.  I would suggest you check out Peter Parfitt's thread and YouTube videos (under New Brit Workshop) on the subject.

Gary

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

Shree,

Welcome to the forum and sorry for the circumstances for your first post.

As others have mentioned, we have a three year warranty that includes free shipping. When you call the service guys and are explaining what's going on, they do not see the saw, cannot observe what's going on and have to account for many, many variables from how the person is using the tool to the material to the condition of the blade, to name a few. Having been on the phone with customers trying to help them, I can tell you it's difficult at times and can be frustrating on both ends of the phone.

Your dealer seems to have offered some help, but I don't understand why you say the dealer took the saw back but you seem to still be having trouble. Was the saw replaced? Does the dealer have a demo unit on the floor that you could make cuts with, or have them make cuts with while you observe, to see if the results are similar to yours?

I work some of the best people you'll ever meet who genuinely care about our customers and I have to defend them when you say our customer service is poor. There are too many examples on this forum of people reporting otherwise. Here's an example that our customer service is good.... Here's my phone number. Call me any time day or night even on weekends and I will work to help you get this resolved. 765-894-2172 (c).

I look forward to having the opportunity to help you get this resolved to your satisfaction. If you'd prefer that I call you, just send me an email with your contact info.

Shane Holland
Festool USA
sho@festoolusa.com

 

[Wooden Skye]

Sorry for your Kapex problems. If this is happening on 2 different saws, I find it unlikely that it has anything to do with the saw and it may in fact be the wood, but may also be technique. As others have mentioned, I would support the cut with a sacrificial fence, use a higher tooth blade, let the saw stop completely after making the cut.

 

[Kevin McConville]

Miss living in Europe at least I could have called from Sweden to Germany would have been easier...

I've done lot of business with German companies over the years, I've called them from NA, as well as from EU and even from China, it's been my experience that it's not that much harder from here or Asia than it is from the EU - I let the electrons and the light pulses do most of the work. It's only 6 hrs time difference from MA, plenty of overlap in your business day and theirs.

This might just be a little bit sarcastic - but you did set the tone

 

[Audiophile20]

All- My apologies, I still have the saw. While I very much appreciate the offer from the dealer to take the saw back, I rather like the dust collection.  So I am holing on to it.  Sorry for the confusion.  Updated my post now - hopefully this is clear.

Shane- Thanks for the post.  Will ring you tomorrow.

As to calling Germany from NA, no worries. I can do that and have done that.  Just to add I have done business around the world.  So I can work globally thanks  [smile]  Agreed I did open the door for the sarcasm.

As to the blade quality - let me please clarify,  this is a new blade.  I have cut about 30mins worth, so hopefully I don't have to sharpen the blade already.

To clarify, I have only experience with the Kapex I purchased and I have.  All meant to say was the Dewalt does not have tear out issues.

Thanks to you all for the suggestions about the backing board or zero clearance option.  I have one on my table saw and will explore getting one for the Kapex.  What is interesting is this is not listed anywhere on the website or the marketing material as something one should think about.  Please note I am spoiled using Festool, as the tools do exactly what they are advertised to do.  This happening with any other brand, I would not complain this much.  My expectation level would be very different.

As to the price, I agree it is expensive.  I have now accepted the fact while Festool is expensive, dust collection/accuracy/German quality - demands a premium.  I am good with that; I just wish my experience with Kapex would continued that trend.  I am just disappointed.

Given this is an issue, can't Festool just make the right accessory to get this fixed?  The fact I have to make pieces to fix this is what is bugging me.

I will build backing fence, and report back.

 

[tjbnwi]

The photo---Was the piece slide cut or chop cut?

I have some hard maple here and a "stock" Kapex, I don't remember ever having tear out like that. I'll cut a piece the way you did and post a picture of the cut.

Tom

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

Feed rate of the saw can also affect this type of "blow out" on the back side of the cut. Pushing through the cut will exaggerate the splintering.

The simplest solution, as others have said, is to use a piece of sacrificial wood as a zero clearance. I don't know of a miter saw that comes with such a thing built in, but I could be wrong.

I have a chuck of 6/4 maple around here somewhere and will try to remember to make some cuts before we talk.

Chat with you tomorrow.

 

[nclemmons]

If you download Rick's Supplemental Manual for the Kapex, it has plans for making a sacrificial zero clearance rear fence.  I'd suggest you use 1/4" baltic birch ply to minimize the thickness and still allow you to use the hold-down clamps.

The manual is here - http://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/kapex-ks120-supplemental-manual.pdf

It also has plans for making a zero clearance insert for the bottom as well.

Good luck!

 

[nerfball]

I'm going to lean the other way and say the blade needs to be broken in a little before it will make satisfactory cuts.

However, there are far too many variables, like - how hard you're pushing, the speed of the blade, grain direction and density of the wood, how firmly the piece is being held down, the alignment of the moon to Saturn's......... you get my point.

I think you need to practice a little more with that saw. Most every time I've seen an issue like this, the solution is based around  changing the input variables, i.e. your technique, add a backer, clean up the cut with a second pass, etc etc.

But having said all that, I think in the photo what you see there is not that big a deal - I mean you will sand the piece later, right? Those planer/jointer marks are a bigger deal than that little bit of fuzz you have there.

I'm a professional working on multi-million $$ homes and have had a Kapex for 5 years. Also owned Makita's and DeWalts, and it for sure kicks the Dewalt's butt all day long

All the best,