Kapex vs. ??????????????

[TahoeTwoBears]

Hi folks,

Don't get me wrong, but I'm not aware of the advantages of the Kapex. Now, I'm a dyed in the wool Festoolian, but I'm hoping someone can explain the differences for me between a Kapex and my current CSMS which is the Bosch 5412L, as in:
http://www.boschtools.com/tools/tools-detail.htm?H=175981&G=54931&I=64805

Thanks for all the help. I need to know so I can start worrying about the introduction as much as everyone else!

Mike

 

[Lou Miller]

Hi folks,

Don't get me wrong, but I'm not aware of the advantages of the Kapex. Now, I'm a dyed in the wool Festoolian, but I'm hoping someone can explain the differences for me between a Kapex and my current CSMS which is the Bosch 5412L, as in:
http://www.boschtools.com/tools/tools-detail.htm?H=175981&G=54931&I=64805

Thanks for all the help. I need to know so I can start worrying about the introduction as much as everyone else!

Mike

Its going to be really hard for us N Americans to offer viewpoints on this until it actually becomes available here. Unless you're Rick or someone like that, how can you really know?

It looks to me like the biggest single difference is duct collection. Your Bosch will probably have just as much cutting capacity if not more. I'm hoping they use better bearings and stuff like to simply make the saw more accurate. I personally don't need many bells and whistles on a miter saw. Accuracy and dust collection would mean a lot. Having said that, my Makita LS1214 might be the most accurate miter saw I've ever used. It has terrible dust collection though.

 

[chippy31]

Hi Mike I was asked this question on a site last week. It was a new church,  that was way behind schedule.

I was fitting the kitchen and had the room beside it looking like a Festool showroom. I have alot of stuff and I do not like to be without it.
The kitchen was huge by the way. Anyway to the point. I counted 5 SCMS all good makes. So that meant 5 people who laughed at the price of the Kapex. I said fair enough it is expensive, give it a try.
All 5 said they would buy it, if they needed one, it oozes quality. I would not give up a good saw like yours just to get it. But if you could sell it, I would recommend the Kapex. I think the jigsaws are pants by the way, so I am not Festool mad.  Derek    

 

[Dan Clark]

Hi folks,

Don't get me wrong, but I'm not aware of the advantages of the Kapex. Now, I'm a dyed in the wool Festoolian, but I'm hoping someone can explain the differences for me between a Kapex and my current CSMS which is the Bosch 5412L, as in:
http://www.boschtools.com/tools/tools-detail.htm?H=175981&G=54931&I=64805

Thanks for all the help. I need to know so I can start worrying about the introduction as much as everyone else!

Mike

Mike,

Since I'm a FINA (Festoolian In North America), I obviously don't have one.  However, I do have a Bosch 4410L.  It's a decent saw, but it has some defects which makes it less accurate.  And dust collection "sucks" (in a bad way).  However the big issue for me is weight!  The 4410L with stand adapter is 75lbs (I weighed it) and awkward to lift.   

Compare the Bosch weight with the Festool at about 47lbs and that's a lot of difference.  Lifting that @#$# Bosch is bad news.  I've thrown my back out several times.  For me the lighter weight alone is a big benefit of the Kapex!

Besides the obvious pain reduction, there is the medical cost to consider.  I can attribute at least 6 trips to my chiropractor from lifting that Bosch (including two visits after I lifted it to test the weight).  That's about $200.  If my back goes "sproing" badly, I could be visiting my chiropractor 2-3 times per week for several weeks.  That adds up quickly.

I haven't used my miter saw much in the last several months.  That will change starting early in 2008.  So my risk of back injury goes way up.  I don't want to use the Bosch when that workload hits! 

Message to Christian O: I need my Kapex!!!

Dan.

 

[TahoeTwoBears]

Hi Dan,

I'm a FINA (Festoolian In North America) as well. Obviously I haven't seen a Kapex yet so I was just curious. I've currently got the Bosch 5412L, which is heavy as well. I've got it on it's table which is currently a T3 from Bosch (made by TracRac). It's got little tiny wheels which are a pain to roll over lawn, etc. I was looking at the new T4B (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000VZNEM0/ref=ord_cart_shr?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance) which is very similar to the one on my Bosch table saw. The one on my table saw is something to rave about. Moves easily, sets up in a flash with no lifting. Great. I was thinking about buying the portable stand for my Bosch, but with all the raving about the Kapex started to think that my pennies might be better off saved for yet another green tool. Guess I'll joing the waiting game............

 

[Dan Clark]

Mike,

Thanks for posting this.  I wasn't aware of the new stand.  Of all the Bosch products available, I think the gravity rise stand ranks right at the top.  In fact, I think it's a key benefit for the Bosch tablesaw.  It looks like it would remove a big part of the hassle and issue with my 4410.  And the cost would be MUCH less than buying a new Kapex.  That said, there are still some issues...

First, the combined weight of the 4410 and saw would be well over 100 lbs.  That's not big issue for moving or storing in a shop.  However, the weight could be a big issue when loading it into a truck or SUV, or moving it up/down stairs. 

Second, there's a gap between the stand wings and the saw deck.  The saws built in wings could take up that gap.  However, my saw's left extension wing is not coplaner with the saw deck.  I think it's a manufacturing flaw and I don't think it's fixable.  (Is there a way to fix that?) 

Finally, there's the issue of dust collection and my saw's single laser.  The Kapex's dust collection and dual laser would be VERY nice.

I'm trying to find the right balance.  Money not spent on the Kapex could be spent on the MFK700 trim router and other nice Festool toys.  Decisions, decisions...

Regards,

Dan.

 

[Lou Miller]

Mike,

Second, there's a gap between the stand wings and the saw deck.  The saws built in wings could take up that gap.  However, my saw's left extension wing is not coplaner with the saw deck.  I think it's a manufacturing flaw and I don't think it's fixable.  (Is there a way to fix that?) 

No fix for that at all, it is a MAJOR design flaw to the Bosch saws. I believe they have corrected that on a fair amount of the saws, but it exists on far too many to begin with. That's why I dumped my Bosch and went out and bought a Makita instead. Bosch also has major problems with their fences being warped. The Bosch has some really cool features, but they left a lot to be desired in the quality department, IMO. If they would just address some of their quality control issues and get better DC, they might just have the best mitersaw on the market. As is, I'll never even look at another Bosch saw. The weight doesn't bother me... In fact, the lack of weight with the Kapex has me a little concerned about its durability and its ability to handle vibration. Could be a non-issue, but there's no way for us to tell until we get the saw over here in NA.

I'm anxious to check one out in person. Still have no idea if I'm going to buy one or not, but I really look forward to at least seeing them.

 

[Dan Clark]

Lou,

First, thanks for responding.  Second, I really didn't need to know that.  :'(  (Actually, I DO need to know that.)  Unfortunately, it matches some other posts I've read about the 4410. 

FYI, I chose the 4410 over the Makita saw because of the features.  Besides being light in weight, the Makita saws have a reputation for great accuracy.  I think the lack of features is because the Makita 10" and 12" saws are about 8 years old.  Kind of long in the tooth. 

If Makita redesigned them with the same quality and improved some of the features (e.g. dust collection, dual laser, and front mounted controls), they would do very well in the market.  Given the difficulty in getting good quality AND reasonable price in today's market, I'm hopeful but a bit pessimistic.

Decisions, decisions...

Dan.

 

[mastercabman]

lou,   looks to me that you like makita miter saws.i also like makita tools.i looked at their miter saw and a couple things trouble me.
1:the scale,it is set to the side.isn't it a pain sometime to try to read while you have material on the saw?
2:the fence,not very tall! when you cut crown,do you cut it flat on the saw?do you use an auxiliary fence,like a pcs of wood?how do you do it?
i read a lots of very good reviews on those saws.i do believe they are accurate.  i'm also ready to invest on a new saw(very soon).maybe the kapex or a makita.

 

[Lou Miller]

Lou,

First, thanks for responding.  Second, I really didn't need to know that.  :'(  (Actually, I DO need to know that.)  Unfortunately, it matches some other posts I've read about the 4410. 

FYI, I chose the 4410 over the Makita saw because of the features.  Besides being light in weight, the Makita saws have a reputation for great accuracy.  I think the lack of features is because the Makita 10" and 12" saws are about 8 years old.  Kind of long in the tooth. 

If Makita redesigned them with the same quality and improved some of the features (e.g. dust collection, dual laser, and front mounted controls), they would do very well in the market.  Given the difficulty in getting good quality AND reasonable price in today's market, I'm hopeful but a bit pessimistic.

Decisions, decisions...

Dan.

Yeah, the Makita is an older model, but its still a very well made saw. The thing I like the most about it is how smooth the slide action is. By far, the smoothest of any I've tried yet (Kapex obviously not included). There are a couple of things that Makita could do to redesign that saw that would make a substantial improvement, but its still quite good the way it is. I personally don't have any use for lasers (I never trust them), but Makita's laser is easily switched from one side of the blade to the other. Its very adjustable and very accurate. Not like the piece of crap that came with my Bosch. That thing was so worthless I threw it in the trash the day the saw arrived.

The bottom line, IMO anyway, is the Makita is best SCMS in the NA market at the moment withouit being upgraded. The only saw that has a chance of replacing them is the Kapex. Having said that, I'm sure its only a matter of time until Makita does upgrade their saws.

 

[Dan Clark]

...
i read a lots of very good reviews on those saws.i do believe they are accurate. 
...

Regarding "...those saws..." were you referring to the Bosch or the Makita, or both?  

FYI, I've ready lots of great reviews on both the Bosch and the Makita.  In general, they tie for two honors or are clost to it.  Typically, the reviewers rave about the Makita's accuracy and the Bosch's features.

While I like the Bosch's features and I do NOT like the Makita's vertical handle, when the Bosch's cut accuracy and quality start failing, it's tough for me to feel good about the features. 

It's interesting...  I'm a "geek" kinda guy.  I've always loved techy stuff.  That said, lots of nice features that don't work well are a ROYAL PITA!  For example, my cell phone is a Windows Mobile device with full PDA functions.  As a PDA, it works well - when it works.  (It's got bugs galore!)  As a phone, it sucks!  Now take a look at the Apple iPhone - much simpler!  But the features are smooth and seamless. They work. (I'm not so sure about their phone service, however.)

Or take Festool...  A while back, some moron on another forum complained about Festool's high price, fancy features, and strong marketing hype!    After I stopped laughing, I wrote a response asking him what planet he lived on!  While they are pricey, Festools are plain looking, but work well.  And their "plainess" is beautful in my opinion.  They don't have a lot of geeky features, but they do their job day in and day out.   

So I'm learning to love those things that simply make my life easier and allow me to accomplish things.  That's why I want that flat black (with green accents), simple-looking Kapex.  IMO, buying something that actually works as well as the marketing brochure says it does is worth every penny.

Regards,

Dan.

 

[Dan Clark]

...
The bottom line, IMO anyway, is the Makita is best SCMS in the NA market at the moment withouit being upgraded. The only saw that has a chance of replacing them is the Kapex. Having said that, I'm sure its only a matter of time until Makita does upgrade their saws.

Lou,

When I first bought my Bosch, I would have disagreed with you.  Now, I'm with you.  (We live and learn.)    I also agree about the Kapex and hope you're right about a Makita replacement. 

I just hope Makita ships a new version quickly.  As much as I like Festool, it's always nice to have a choice.  I'd like that choice before replacing my Bosch.

Regards,

Dan.

 

[Lou Miller]

lou,  looks to me that you like makita miter saws.i also like makita tools.i looked at their miter saw and a couple things trouble me.
1:the scale,it is set to the side.isn't it a pain sometime to try to read while you have material on the saw?
2:the fence,not very tall! when you cut crown,do you cut it flat on the saw?do you use an auxiliary fence,like a pcs of wood?how do you do it?
i read a lots of very good reviews on those saws.i do believe they are accurate.  i'm also ready to invest on a new saw(very soon).maybe the kapex or a makita.

The scale's location is a huge PITA at first. However, it only takes a little bit of time to get used to using it the way it is. Its not perfect, but they really didn't have much of an alternative with the way the saw is constructed. The Makitas have a one piece table construction. IMO, this is the single biggest reason for Makita's accuracy being so good. It eliminates the problems that Dan and I were talking about above, there isn't anything to be worried about being coplanar. I had the same issues with a Dewalt saw years ago too. Of course that saw had all kinds of other quality issues too. The Kapex has the same design as the Dewalt and the Bosch (most other saws are built this way, the Makita is really the only unique one in this area). Since the whole table turns, finding a good spot for the miter indicator is a little tough. They still could have done a better job on that though, but it really is only a minor issue. You make about 20 cuts and you get accustomed to it.

As to the fence... Well, I have the LS1214. The 1214 comes with an auxiliary fence on the right side that is removable for cutting large crown. It works perfectly, you just have to remove it when you want to make bevel cuts. It has two thumb screws that pop off in just one second. The LS1013 doesn't come with that accessory as standard, but it is available (not cheap though and it brings the two saws much closer together in price). Both saws have a flip auxiliary fence for the left side. With these auxiliary fences in place, their fence is really no smaller in height than any other saw on the market. There is where Bosch is nicer in that their fences slide out of the way quite well. Bosch just didn't execute things all that well with their current saws, IMO. My fence was out a good bit on my 4412 along with its table not being coplanar. The fence pieces that slide were off at the top by about a degree or so and it had a major impact on cutting large crown. The Makita sub fences line up perfectly.

Even though the controls for the bevel lock are mounted in the back on the Makita, I like them better then the up front controls on the Bosch. The Bosch has that crazy switch that you have to deal with to unlock the bevel depending on which way you want to bevel the saw. With the Makita, you just flip the lever and go. The saw is held at zero by a spring loaded ball bearing. Very nice design.

Of all the saws I've used over the years, which is a ton of them, the Makita is definitely the best. The older Bosch 3915 is an extremely close second though. Bosch had a great saw on their hands with that one, but it only beveled in one direction. Unlike their current offerings, it was rock solid and didn't have any of the defects that they have now. I sold my 3915 when I got my 4412, and I really wish I hadn't. That was such a great saw. Far better than the 44 and 54 series that are out now.

Try to hang on and wait for the Kapex before you do anything. Both Makitas are great saws, but the Kapex really looks like it could be better in a lot of respects. The Makita does require a lot of room to sit on a bench (but it will make a crosscut up to 16-3/8" wide at 90 degrees). Right now the Hitachi is clearly better in that regard, but the Kapex looks to be even better than the Hitachi. I still say the downside to the Kapex will be the price tag. I got my LS1214 For $400 and change and got a free 18v compact lithium drill included with it. Its awfully hard to beat that in terms of value. I think they are going closer to $600 right now, but they go on sale quite frequently. Having said that, if the Kapex is truly worth the added cost in my opinion, I'll buy one without much complaining. Okay, I'll whine a little (maybe a lot), but I'll probably still grab one as long as they aren't too high in price. Under a thousand dollars and I may be interested. If they are over a grand, I'm staying with my Makita.

 

[mastercabman]

...
i read a lots of very good reviews on those saws.i do believe they are accurate. 
...

Regarding "...those saws..." were you referring to the Bosch or the Makita, or both?  

i was referring to the makita.i like bosch but too many mix reviews.some are really good and some are really bad.

 

[mastercabman]

lou,  thanks for the info.i work with the bosch 3915.i really like it.it is getting old!  i think i'm going to wait until the kapex comes out(i hope it does)if it is too much or not up to what i need(i don't see why not),i 'm going to look at makita again.

 

[Lou Miller]

lou,  thanks for the info.i work with the bosch 3915.i really like it.it is getting old!  i think i'm going to wait until the kapex comes out(i hope it does)if it is too much or not up to what i need(i don't see why not),i 'm going to look at makita again.

Like I said above, my only concern with the Kapex is the lack of weight associated with it. To me, not having seen the saw in person, I automatically compute that to mean that they had to cut something short. Most likely that's a wrong guess on my part though. I do prefer a saw that is heavier though. I know lifting the thing is a PITA, but with a heavy saw, you can just plop it down on some 2x4s and horses and cut all day. That's where the 3915 really shined. The lighter saws want to tip too easily and they end up being a real burden. I normally carry a stand with me (one of those Rigid $99 ones) and I use that for most things. However, there are a lot of times I just want to set the saw up very quickly, make a few cuts and get out of dodge as fast as possible. That's when a lighter saw becomes a problem for me. I know I won't be buying one of the MFT 800's to mount the Kapex to, that's for sure. I hate lugging around my MFT 1080 now. Love it for the shop, but hate it on site. If I get a Kapex, I'll most likely attach a Sawhelper to it.

Somebody head on over to Germany and give these guys a kick in the pants, we've been waiting long enough.

 

[Dan Clark]

...
Somebody head on over to Germany and give these guys a kick in the pants, we've been waiting long enough.

Lou,

I suspect that Christian O is frothing at the mouth over the delays.  And that he's worn out the toes of his shoes.   8)

Dan. 

 

[chippy31]

Ok I thought I would put a slightly more intelligent post on. One that had  involved less whisky consumption beforehand.

Lou I know what you mean by the saw tipping over, but the way the Kapex balances itself is superb. I am happy to put it on two systainer 4 and cut away.
The weight thing is to me an incredible advantage, thankfully I do not have the real problem back that some do on here. Saying that, like many if I ain't working I ain't earning, so I am conscious of what I carry and she just ain't heavy. Also the way the weight is balanced you sort of hug it into yourself which makes it feel lighter.  I find myself bringing it in to a job as standard just in case I need it. I would not have done that with my old Hitachi. You needed to warm up before you moved it.

I cannot really comment on dust control compared to other saws, like many I did not bother with it before Festool. I do know that I can use it to cut MDF in a kitchen and am confident that there will be very little dust. This is one of my selling points for my work so I would need to be confident about it.

The twin lasers are very useful as is the adjustable bevel and the variable speed is a god send. The ability to half lap/trench was I thought just a gimmick at the start, not anymore. I find myself using it for everything.
Actually I am getting ridiculous with it and need to stop showing off.

Saying all that I cannot comprehend how they can develop what to me is the worlds best SCMS bar none.

AND THEN PLONK IT ON A MFT WITH BITS OF RAIL EITHER SIDE THAT LOOK LIKE THEY WERE DESIGNED BY A CHILD.

I was so disappointed in the quality of the side rails I sold them. The wee MFT is ok, but it is too heavy to move about.
So in a twist to the NAINA thing I am patiently waiting for you guys to get them so I can get your opinion of other stands etc.

In the meantime I have made a sort of sysport with the saw mounted on it that flips over to give a flat bench when I need it. Hope this is of some use. Derek 
   

 

[rodwolfy]

Yeah, the Makita is an older model, but its still a very well made saw. The thing I like the most about it is how smooth the slide action is. By far, the smoothest of any I've tried yet (Kapex obviously not included). There are a couple of things that Makita could do to redesign that saw that would make a substantial improvement, but its still quite good the way it is. I personally don't have any use for lasers (I never trust them), but Makita's laser is easily switched from one side of the blade to the other. Its very adjustable and very accurate. Not like the piece of crap that came with my Bosch. That thing was so worthless I threw it in the trash the day the saw arrived.

The bottom line, IMO anyway, is the Makita is best SCMS in the NA market at the moment withouit being upgraded. The only saw that has a chance of replacing them is the Kapex. Having said that, I'm sure its only a matter of time until Makita does upgrade their saws.

I'd have to agree with Lou here. I don't have the on the job experience that he does (I'm a hobby guy), but all of the trim carpenters over the years that I've talked to or read posts of, have said that the Makita was the best, as it was the most accurate - even after knocking about to various job sites.

When I went looking about 6 year ago to get a SCMS to replace my DeWalt CMS, I went into Lowes and talked to the sales person. He'd been there a long time. He told me to try both the LS1013 Makita and DeWalt 12" SCMS. He said that they'd been handled by all the customers over the last couple of years. He then pointed out how much slop was in the DeWalt saw after that time. The Makita wouldn't flex; however, the DeWalt had a lot of lateral movement in the slide mechanism after only two years. To me that translated to being off by up to a couple of degrees on a cut.

Most of the reviews note the newer Bosch to have all of the ritzy features, but the Makita still comes out in first of second place in most reviews. But, that doesn't show how accurate they are, nor how well the design will hold up to toting around to various job sites.

The thing that I hate about the LS1013 (and all miter saws that I've ever used) is the horrible dust collection - even though I have a built-in shop vac dedicated to mine! From what I've heard about the Kapex, it's more accurate than even the Makita (I'd like to see a head to head comparison, using both next to each other) and it's got much better dust collection than any other SCMS on the market. To me, those are the two most important attributes if everything else is equal (i.e. depth of cut). I don't need the quick release mechanisms up front or the notched stops or the tiltable handle or the other bells and whistles).

I've been reading a lot about dust collection lately and I didn't realize what a significant respitory health hazard a normal wood shop was. The #1 way to reduce the hazard is dust collection with a HEPA rated vacuum system at the tool during the initial cut. Festool seems to be at the top of the heap when it comes to this.

My experience is starting to find Festool to be of very high quality and design. Despite the cost, I'm finding the tools to be worth the money for that quality (I'm from the school of "cry once" and "get the best that you can afford"). I'm hoping the rumors are true of these two aspects of the Kapex - accuracy and dust collection. It might be enough to get me to sell off my Makita.

Rod

 

[Brice Burrell]

I'd have to agree with Lou here. I don't have the on the job experience that he does (I'm a hobby guy), but all of the trim carpenters over the years that I've talked to or read posts of, have said that the Makita was the best, as it was the most accurate - even after knocking about to various job sites....

I'm a Makita 1214 owner, I use it almost everyday, so I have some pretty strong opinions about SCMS. To me this is one of the most important qualities, how well a SCMS holds up overtime, and as you point out the Matika really shines here.

...From what I've heard about the Kapex, it's more accurate than even the Makita (I'd like to see a head to head comparison, using both next to each other) and it's got much better dust collection than any other SCMS on the market....

Rod, that is just what I intend to do when the Kapex gets here, show a head to head comparison on my site of the Makita and the Kapex. Should be fun and I can't wait!