Kapex which Dust Extractor CT or Fein

[Shopmonkey]

I have a small shop and have been debating for year on whether or not to buy the Kapex.  I am not a Festool owner yet and hopefully the Kapex would be my first Festool.  I’m interested in the Kapex because everyone raves about its dust extraction.  Only thing keeping me from buying it so far is the $1,400 price tag. 

I was just about to buy the Kapex when upon further research I’ve read that the Kapex dust extraction only works well with the larger Festool CT dust extractor which is like another $800.  Now I really have to think this over again. 

I have been comparing the various Festool CT model on their website and it seem they all pretty much have the same specification (137 CFM), only major difference I see is the container capacity.  Do the CT Mini and CT48 have the same motor?  Am I not seeing something? 

Will I get the same performance with a CT Mini with a 36mm hose VS. the CT48 with a 36mm hose hooked up to the Kapex? 

I’m also considering the new Fein Turbo I dust extractor which is rated at 151 CFM, seems to be more powerful than the Festool CT.  Would this be a better choice?  It’s significantly more affordable, but I would not want to buy it if it is not going to give me better performance.     

To me based on the website specifications, the new Fein Turbo I dust extractor seems like a better choice for the Kapex.  But I keep feeling like I’m missing something so what better place to consult then this forum. 

 

[AIPDX]

I used the Kapex initially with a Ridgid vacuum from the Home Depot (around $79), rated at around 170-180 cfm, connected to Kapex with a Bosch vacuum hose available from Amazon. Later, I purchased a dedicated CT26 for it, but still use the same Bosch hose, albeit now with a Festool connector that goes on top of the dust port.

I did not see any difference in dust extraction that would be significant enough to notice in any of the 3 configurations: Ridgid with Bosch hose with OEM connector which goes inside the dust port, CT26 with Bosch hose with OEM connector which goes inside the dust port, and the same with a Festool connector that goes over the dust port. My take on it is that with Kapex, the airways are wide open. High water lift which dust extractors have (which helps them to suck air through narrow openings) is not critical in this case, high CFM are much more important. Having said that, the difference between 130, 140, and 170 CFM is not significant enough to make a difference. You might notice a factor of 2 difference in CFM ratings , but not 20-30%.

If you want, you can use a MIDI or a MINI with the Kapex. You can plug in any hose into the midi. You might get an impression that the hose is permanently attached to smaller Festool vacuums, but in fact it is a friction fit L-connector with the same end as on 37 mm and 50 mm Festool hoses. I own a Midi and I plugged in hoses of all diameters made by Festool into the Midi.

Of course you can use Fein with the Kapex. However, if you plan to buy a Fein for this purpose, you might be better off starting with any shop vacuum and getting a Festool extractor later for esthetic and system integration reasons. Festool dust extractors have the advantage that you can attach systaners on top of them, or a boom arm to CT26. And they look good with other Festool tools.

CT26 and larger reportedly (according to the latest specs, if I remember them correctly) rated 10 CFM higher than Midi and Mini. Practically, you do not notice any difference. CT26 has only two real advantages: it uses bigger bags which takes longer to fill, and you can attach a boom arm to it. The disadvantage is that if you want to move it around or carry it, Midi is so much better as it is smaller and lighter. The other disadvantage is that if you plug in a 37 mm or a 50 mm hose into a Midi, it will stick vertically and you can't put a systainer on top of the midi. The rest is pretty much the same.

As you know, you absolutely have to have dust extraction with the Kapex. This tool was designed to work with a vacuum, and if you don't connect one, dust will be all over your tool and you - much worse than with any other brand. In contrast, with ANY vacuum, dust collection is excellent. You stated that you found that the Kapex dust extraction only works with the larger Festool CT dust extractor. This is not correct. My experience proves that it works well with ANY vacuum as long as it is rated over 100 - 150 CFM, which pretty much of them are.

If you have budget constraints, buy a Bosch 36 mm hose from Amazon (around $30-40) and plug it into any shop vacuum that you have, or get a vacuum from Lowes or Home Depot for $50 or so. It will work just fine - in terms of dust extraction from the Kapex, the vacuum which you most certainly already have it will work just as a Festool vacuum would. The main inconvenience is that you have to manually turn on the power on the vac, and that shop vacs tend to be a lot noisier.

If you ask me why I ended up buying a dedicated CT26 for my Kapex to replace much cheaper Ridgid vacuum, then the reason has nothing to do with the efficiency of dust extraction. It was because (a) with the automatic power on feature, I do not need to turn on CT26 manually each time I use the Kapex, and (b) because CT26 is so much quieter than the Ridgid, and (c) because Festool dust extractor looks cool and fits nicely under the saw stand extension wings.

 

[jonathan-m]

First of all welcome to the forum. I've been looking at the new Fein vacs for the exact same reason.

Dust extraction obviously works with any vaccuum. You just need the correct hose with correct tool end to connect to the port on the back of the saw.
While the best out there, the dust collection capability of the Kapex tends to get exaggerated. You'll get most of the fine dust, but heavier particles will still spray around. A shop vac simply can't generate enough CFM or suction to grab those.
My standard setup is a CT26 with shortened (1.4m) 36mm hose connected. I can still smell the fine dust particles in the air, which is a clear indicator not all the fine dust is collected.

I've experimented by attaching my 2nd CT26 as well. Both vacuums go into a Y-connector and from there a short piece of 36mm hose goes to the Kapex. Although kind of a crazy setup, this noticeably improved collection and there's no more smell in the air. I also noticed a much more visible vortex of dust getting sucked into to the dust shroud behind the blade.
Thus my crude unscientific conclusion is that a single CT vac cannot create enough airflow (CFM) to collect all the fine particles let alone the coarser ones. Mind you, the 2 vacs grabbed more, but still not everything.

Now there's other things to consider here, will your vacuum be dedicated to the miter saw or will it have to serve other tools as well?
If it's to be dedicated to the miter saw and nothing else I would go the Fein route. If it's to be used to go on location and you have a lot of systainers, I'd go Festool. There are better vacuums than the Festool ones in terms of performance but the Festool vacuums are by far the most practical design if you're heavily invested in their ecosystem. Sometimes the big picture is more important than raw performance.

A few things I've noted:
The new Fein vacs have 16% more CFM vs. a CT Mini/Midi and 10% more CFM vs a CT26. In practice the difference will be small, but any improvement in performance is a welcome one.
They're rated at 67db vs 72db for the Festools. This means running 2 units simultaneously is quieter (2db, which can almost not be heard) than a single Festool CT.
The Feins run for 15seconds after the tool shuts down, which is frankly a long time and can get annoying. But for a miter saw this isn't a bad thing. It'll give the vacuum a better chance to pull in more of whatever dust is airborne and floating around the saw. The Festools run for 3 seconds.
The Feins are not anti-static the Festools are.
The Feins come with a 35mm non anti-static hose and a 27mm tool end. The Festools come with a 27mm anti-static hose and 27mm tool end. Both of these are useless for the Kapex as you want a 36mm hose and 36mm tool end for better airflow.
Both vacuums can auto-start when you trigger the saw.

In my case the Kapex is dedicated to the shop and so is it's vacuum. As soon as funds allow it I'll be getting 2 of the small Fein's to dedicate to my Kapex using a Y connector and a separate auto-start switch to not trip the fuses of the vacs. They're cheap, they're compact and they've got the better performance.

 

[Tinker]

I have the old CT 33, but no Kapex.  I have a cyclone in the mix.  The major problem with the CT without cyclone is that the bag just needs to be replaced more often.  With the cyclone, i lose some suction a the tool I am using.  It takes a long time for the bag to fill with dust.  That is about all that finds its way into the CT; as all of the larger particles end up captured in the cyclone.  The cyclone is much easier to empty than the CT.  The problem with emptying the cyclone is that I have to do that outside, or redistribute a cloud of dust back into the air inside the shop.  Emptying the CT is a simple matter, after clearing floor space around the CT so I can open it up, is pulling a bag out and replacing. 

Those little Hepa filters do get packed with fine dust and do need to be cleaned with each time he CT is emptied.  That, I do outside as well.  Especially, since I have been using the cyclone, those get totally packed with very fine dust that needs to be tapped out every time i replace the CT bag.  Before using the cyclone, i took out those HEPA's only every now and then. 

I think the use of a cyclone has even a very big step in the right direction.  At the same time, I think that should I go to a Kapex, I should probably upgrade my CT to something supplying greater cgm's than my CT 33.  It is interesting that one responder has hooked up two extractors.  That is interesting.  i also have a CT 22 that I use if I am to of range on the 33 which is dedicated to working on my MFT and the area immediately around that.  I had been thinking of upgrading to a newer CT with greater airflow, but think it might be a saving to stick with what I have and run both CT's thru the cyclone.  I don't think I will go to a Kapex, but will go to a non slider as I so seldom use the SCMS that I do have. 
Tinker

 

[NHSP759]

Welcome Shopmonkey,

Although I'm just a novice here, I bought a reconditioned Midi JUST for my Kapex. I then bought the Bosch Vac005 hose for 34.99 via Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000AV78B/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

This is a 35mm hose that plugs right into my Midi, just as mentioned, by friction. The dust collection is awesome compared to my 27mm and just plain wicked awesome when compared to my last saw and vacuum combo.  The hose fits right onto the Kapex as pictured:

 

[rst]

I love my festools, all ten of them...but I use three Fein vacs, two of the IIs and a I.  I do not use antistatic hoses.  Two of these are connected to Onieda Dust Deputies, the metal one...  AXD001002.  I've had these five or six years and they work so well I have trouble imagining that the Festool vacs can be worth the price difference.  Oh, and I rout and sand a LOT of plastics... static hell. That being said, I would like to own a Festool vac just because of ability to attach my multitude of systainers above.

 

[Harvey]

I have a Fein Turbo III on my Kapex. I like it for the money. It’s doesn’t have the thoughtful features of the Festool vacs,  but the newer Turbo I & II are more ‘Festoolish.  I shot a video (yesterday!) of the Kapex with/without dust collection that I’ll post as a separate topic. 

I use the  dust deputy too. It’s a great addition.

 

[Shopmonkey]

Thanks everyone for all your thoughtful inputs.  This Vac would most likely be dedicated to the Kapex for now.  I think I may be leaning towards the Fein Turbo vac mainly base on cost and that it's quiet.  So I can save some money for possibly more Festool tools in the future. 

Would the Fein hook up well to the other Festool tools like the sander and track saw?  For possible future purchase.

 

[Shopmonkey]

First of all welcome to the forum. I've been looking at the new Fein vacs for the exact same reason.

A few things I've noted:
The new Fein vacs have 16% more CFM vs. a CT Mini/Midi and 10% more CFM vs a CT26. In practice the difference will be small, but any improvement in performance is a welcome one.
They're rated at 67db vs 72db for the Festools. This means running 2 units simultaneously is quieter (2db, which can almost not be heard) than a single Festool CT.
The Feins run for 15seconds after the tool shuts down, which is frankly a long time and can get annoying. But for a miter saw this isn't a bad thing. It'll give the vacuum a better chance to pull in more of whatever dust is airborne and floating around the saw. The Festools run for 3 seconds.
The Feins are not anti-static the Festools are.
The Feins come with a 35mm non anti-static hose and a 27mm tool end. The Festools come with a 27mm anti-static hose and 27mm tool end. Both of these are useless for the Kapex as you want a 36mm hose and 36mm tool end for better airflow.
Both vacuums can auto-start when you trigger the saw.

jonathan-m,
Thanks for the welcome and the Specification differences between the Vac.  Did you get it off the Fein website?  I couldn't find these Specs on the Fein hose on their website.  I was disappointed with the lack of specification info on the Fein website, I couldn't even find the dimensions of the Turbo I and II.  Unless I'm not looking in the right place or something.  Festool's website has a wealth of info. and easily accessible.

 

[jonathan-m]

Shopmonkey, the information comes from the user manual.

Weight                        8.0kg Turbo I
                                    9.0kg Turbo II
Motor                          1380W
Air flow rate                72 l/s - 153 cfm
Vacuum                      253 mbar - 101.6" static water lift
Height/width/length  471 - 380 - 395mm Turbo I
                                    569 -380 - 395mm Turbo II
Tank capacity              22 L Turbo I
                                    32 L Turbo II
Capacity Liquid          13 L Turbo I
                                    26 L Turbo II
Sound Pressure          67DB

 

[Shopmonkey]

Thanks jonathan-m. 

 

[AIPDX]

Shopmonkey, don't forget to check which Fein vacuums have Hepa filters. I recall, the cheaper ones do not have them, but maybe I am wrong. They are expensive enough to expect Hepa filtration be a part of the package.

 

[Shopmonkey]

Shopmonkey, don't forget to check which Fein vacuums have Hepa filters. I recall, the cheaper ones do not have them, but maybe I am wrong. They are expensive enough to expect Hepa filtration be a part of the package.

Thanks for the heads up.  It seems like all the Fein Turbo I and II uses the same flat-fold filter.  And there are three flat-fold filter options, Cellulose, PES, and HEPA.  So either unit can easily be converted to a HEPA filter.  I like the fact that the parts are interchangeable.  Fein does offer a Turbo II HEPA for $439. 

Also came across a DEWALT DWV010 HEPA with specifications that seems better then the Fein and Festool at $309.99.  What caught my attention was that it uses two cylindrical HEPA filter, more surface area = better air flow = better suction.  And the replacement HEPA filter are really affordable. Specs from DEWALT site: 8 gallons, 15 AMP, 150 CFM, auto clean, auto tool start, and 15' of anti-static hose.  Can not find any db noise rating, but I'm thinking it's probably loud.  Anyone familiar with this DEWALT? 

 

[Iceclimber]

Ill preface what i say by first stating i am very new to Festool. So take my words for what they are worth with that considered.

I had a 3 horse rigid shop vac attached to my Kapex with both a 36mm, 27mm antistatic and non antistatic hose. I noticed no difference in dust collection.

I then tried the same hose configurations with a 5 horse Rigid shop vac and noticed no difference. I should add i had this all setup with a autoswitcher so the cpbac tuns on when the tool trigger is pulled and remains on for 10-15 seconds after the tool is no longer being used. I noticed zero difference between the two.

I then purchased am CT midi. I hooked it up with both 27mm and 36mm antistaic and non antistaic hoses. I noticed no difference over the shop vacs.

I then chopped a 36 mm non antistatic hose to 3ft that has no 90% bends in it. It actually makes a bid down turned loop from the back of the saw and drops directly into the Midi. I noticed zero improvement over the any of the above configurations.

Regardless of dust collection i am happy to have a CT hooked up to my Kapex as i have taken notice of Circuit boards being fried in Festools and Festool not standing behind the warrantee if the tool was used with non Festool tools and accessories particularly non antistatic ones.

Just my experience....

 

[Shopmonkey]

Ill preface what i say by first stating i am very new to Festool. So take my words for what they are worth with that considered.

I had a 3 horse rigid shop vac attached to my Kapex with both a 36mm, 27mm antistatic and non antistatic hose. I noticed no difference in dust collection.

I then tried the same hose configurations with a 5 horse Rigid shop vac and noticed no difference. I should add i had this all setup with a autoswitcher so the cpbac tuns on when the tool trigger is pulled and remains on for 10-15 seconds after the tool is no longer being used. I noticed zero difference between the two.

I then purchased am CT midi. I hooked it up with both 27mm and 36mm antistaic and non antistaic hoses. I noticed no difference over the shop vacs.

I then chopped a 36 mm non antistatic hose to 3ft that has no 90% bends in it. It actually makes a bid down turned loop from the back of the saw and drops directly into the Midi. I noticed zero improvement over the any of the above configurations.

Regardless of dust collection i am happy to have a CT hooked up to my Kapex as i have taken notice of Circuit boards being fried in Festools and Festool not standing behind the warrantee if the tool was used with non Festool tools and accessories particularly non antistatic ones.

Just my experience....

Very interesting.  Thanks for sharing.

 

[AIPDX]

One of the sites (shop better homes) that sells Dewalt lists its noise level at 76 dB. It appears to be bagless, as most shop vacuums are. This is a disadvantage compared to vacuums which use bags to collect dust. Getting dust out of bagless vacuum is always a messy affair.

By the way, CT26 is $625, minus 10% if purchased as a package with Kapex, which makes it more like $550. It is not $800, as I believe you mentioned in the first post.  Midi is $495, or $445 after 10% package discount. This is not so much different from Fein equipped with Hepa filtration.

Does Fein have adjustable suction? This makes no difference for the Kapex, but is invaluable if used with sanders.

 

[baldguy]

is the dewalt bagless or just doesn't ship with a bag?  I don't own a dewalt version, but my shop vac brand vacuums can be operated either way.  I don't think they came with bags, but shop vac do sell the bags for something like $5 each.  I haven't needed to change the bag since adding the dust deputy (different topic, I know).  There definitely is a bag in there, though. 

 

[AIPDX]

A very good point! Indeed, a quick search revealed that there are bags for Dewalt dust extractor. "DEWALT DWV9402 Fleece Bag for DWV012 Dust Extractor, 5-Pack" is sold for $28.76 on Amazon. I overlooked it when made my comment.

 

[baldguy]

good to know they offer them

to throw my two cents in on the OP's question - I definitely agree with the sentiment already in this thread - plenty of vacs will suck air through a hose at an acceptable rate.  the biggest reasons to get the CT over others are aesthetic, unless you're dragging the vac around a job site.  in that case there are functional benefits to consider as well.  in either case, having something with variable speed is helpful for some operations, like sanding.  As a hobbyist, I'm more concerned with saving money and this is one place where I'm more than happy to use cheaper options. 

I'm currently using a shop vac dedicated to my kapex and one on wheels that is dedicated to all other tools, including my TS55.  the performance is pretty great, although I think I could do well with a bit more CFM.  I do have a central dust collector that is currently "in flux" - meaning that I tore most of the plumbing out and am trying to find a better way to handle my blast gates and such.  Before I did though, even it worked well with the TS55.  I haven't been able to test it on the kapex yet.  I tend to think it would benefit more from the higher CFM and lower pressure of a dust collector versus the higher pressure and lower CFM of an extractor.  That's just a guess though... I'll figure it out eventually

 

[Shopmonkey]

Fein has an adjustable suction at the handle, you open the vent and it reduces the suction.  I guess it could be easier to fine tune the suction without having to walk back to the vacuum.  Down side is the vacuum is constantly on at full blast.

According to the specs it seem the Fein (151 CFM) and Dewalt (150 CFM) have higher CFM rating than the Festool (137 CFM).  And replacement bags and filters for the Fein and Dewalt is probably cheaper too. 

What doesn't make sense to me on the Fein Turbo I & II is that the auto start outlet socket is only rate at 6 AMP.  Most miter saws are rated at 15 AMP.  So does that mean I can't plug a 15 Amp miter saw to it?   

But than again the, Festool CT26 manual say's "Max rating of connected Power Tool" is 3.7 AMP.  And the fine print says 9.1 AMP if suction power adjuster is set to the lowest setting. 

I do have to admit, the CT does have a lot of really nice bells and whistles.