Kinda Odd 100

[woodferret]

Word from Burch (VP Sales FUSA?) seems to be that the NA 'set' version does include the cross stop and trim stop as well, but they're trying to get the website updated.  I have no idea what the SKU shuffle will be.  If you're interested in the DF500, I'd hold up until they get that cleared up.

 

[smorgasbord]

Word from Burch (VP Sales FUSA?) seems to be that the NA 'set' version does include the cross stop and trim stop as well, but they're trying to get the website updated.  I have no idea what the SKU shuffle will be.  If you're interested in the DF500, I'd hold up until they get that cleared up.

As I posted above, I initially thought those were not included due to the picture everyone shows. But, when I clicked in on ToolNirvana's listing, it did describe, list, and picture the cross stops and narrow fence accessories as being included.

 

[squall_line]

I find it even more odd that Festool would offer such a steep discount on the -SET version of the DF500 just for the anniversary and also include the fancy Systainer, unless they're following the Mafell anniversary sales model.

 

[mino]

I find it even more odd that Festool would offer such a steep discount on the -SET version of the DF500 just for the anniversary and also include the fancy Systainer, unless they're following the Mafell anniversary sales model.

Pretty sure something got botched up and now looking on how to fix it up .. the pricing in Europe is about €50 lower from the corresponding "Plus" bundle which is also about €200 below the "Set" bundle.

I guess, at the start, there was a typo (i.e. should have been a "Plus" in the US name as per Europe). Then people, probably including those inside FUSA, followed on from that, kicking off further communications based on that typo all the while pricing and all materials like website etc. were still aligned for a "Plus" bundle ..
[cool]

Per woodferret. Best to wait what comes out of it. Best case is you folks get a great deal. Worst case, one will at least know what one is buying ..

 

[woodbutcherbower]

I’m planning to adopt onocoffe’s “influenzers” typo into my vernacular as I generally hold the whole influencer ecosystem thing in low regard….. [smile]

Agreed. The only thing any of these freeloading parasites has 'influenced' me to do is to turn off the computer.

 

[squall_line]

The nature of most pre-order systems nowadays is that you can probably get away with canceling the order if they change the product or price or terms, as it's not charged until shipped.  That said, I have no need for a ... fourth?  [eek] DF-500 right now, fancy case or not, so there's that, too.

 

[simonh]

Isn't the patent up in the next year or two?  Maybe the competitive pricing on the 100th edition is to get as many sales they can before the onslaught of cheaper machines arrive?

 

[Cheese]

Isn't the patent up in the next year or two?  Maybe the competitive pricing on the 100th edition is to get as many sales they can before the onslaught of cheaper machines arrive?

You may be on to something...that Festool 100 pricing is equivalent to USA pricing back in 2020.

 

[squall_line]

Isn't the patent up in the next year or two?  Maybe the competitive pricing on the 100th edition is to get as many sales they can before the onslaught of cheaper machines arrive?

You may be on to something...that Festool 100 pricing is equivalent to USA pricing back in 2020.

Ironically, Mafell's 125th anniversary sale pricing was also pretty much on par with where they were in 2020.  It's one reason I pulled the trigger on a P1cc, but also a stark reminder of how crazy prices have gotten lately.

 

[smorgasbord]

Isn't the patent up in the next year or two?  Maybe the competitive pricing on the 100th edition is to get as many sales they can before the onslaught of cheaper machines arrive?

Maybe, but I would have thought Festool would have been more proactive on the product development front. The DF500 is long in the tooth, they already incorporated some improvements into the DF700, so now's the time to update the DF500 to be even better and continue to capture those dollars.

 

[mino]

Isn't the patent up in the next year or two?  Maybe the competitive pricing on the 100th edition is to get as many sales they can before the onslaught of cheaper machines arrive?

Maybe, but I would have thought Festool would have been more proactive on the product development front. The DF500 is long in the tooth, they already incorporated some improvements into the DF700, so now's the time to update the DF500 to be even better and continue to capture those dollars.

Actually, now is the time to NOT release an update. Not before the major competitors have theirs out.

This is basic rule for "innovator-based" sales - is to make it as difficult/expensive for a competitor to react. The idea is to prevent leeching of one's R&D. Had Festool updated the DF 500 now with some additional features, all competitors would copy them if not patentable or develop their own ways to address them before releasing their own product. If FT releases later, the competitors will already have products on the market, needing to recoup their R&D. Giving FT a couple years of advantage till they again catch up.

I am not saying I enjoy this, but that is the unfortunate way the market works and FT is very much aware of that from what I observe on their releases.

 

[onocoffee]

I'm new to Domino this past year and I know you guys talk about the improvements with the 700 - I'm curious to know where the 500 falls short?

 

[luvmytoolz]

[member=82312]onocoffee[/member] For me the 700 is much more ergonomic, and easier to handle and manage given the terrific rear and front handles design compared to the 500, despite the extra size weight.

Plus the greatly increased cutter depth of course.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

I really hope they come out with something I could use. I "need" one of those Systainers, and a new tool would be great too.  [big grin]

 

[woodferret]

I'm new to Domino this past year and I know you guys talk about the improvements with the 700 - I'm curious to know where the 500 falls short?

Flaps flaps galore.  (although to be honest, I don't trust the factory calibration these days.  DF500 comes with a differently sized plastic flap in case it's off.  The current DF700 looks properly machined).  The DF700 fence stop is also a bit more direct, stating the actual distance from ref edge, instead of material size (that I don't ever see changing on the DF500 since it'd screw everyone up).  You can also change the mortise width while off or on (not plunged) and it doesn't explode (probably the biggest improvement IMHO).  Double stop on the depth adjustment is also a nice touch, taking a bit of the mental work out of making sure you don't punch through.

 

[smorgasbord]

Actually, now is the time to NOT release an update. Not before the major competitors have theirs out.

This is basic rule for "innovator-based" sales - is to make it as difficult/expensive for a competitor to react. The idea is to prevent leeching of one's R&D. Had Festool updated the DF 500 now with some additional features, all competitors would copy them if not patentable or develop their own ways to address them before releasing their own product. If FT releases later, the competitors will already have products on the market, needing to recoup their R&D. Giving FT a couple years of advantage till they again catch up.

I am not saying I enjoy this, but that is the unfortunate way the market works and FT is very much aware of that from what I observe on their releases.

I'm certainly no marketing expert, but I would think now is EXACTLY the time to update an aging design. What Festool risks is that competitors come out with a better tool in terms of features and ergonomics for less money. Then, when/if Festool comes out with an update, it'll already have lost some market buzz, mind share, and may even be looked at as scrambling to catch up to the competition that is already selling them like hotcakes.

Festool doesn't have as strong a lock on the tool market as Apple does in the phone market. People will wait a year or two for Apple to add features to its phones that Android users get first - but ONLY because they're already locked into the Apple Ecosystem. And even here, Apple comes out with major new features every 2 years despite what the competition is/isn't doing.

While Festool does have an ecosystem, there's not a real lock-in except for perhaps bluetooth dust extractor activation (which the DFs don't have anyway). If you're a pro with a DF500, maybe adding a DF700 doesn't make sense due to what you make, but a DeWalt Domino machine that cuts deeper than 28mm (40mm would be good for 8mm and 10mm bites), has more flaps, doesn't confuse you over fence(plate) height, and is more ergonomic could make sense. And DIYers will certainly be more likely to buy a DeWalt/Bosch/Milwaukee domino clone for under $500 rather than spend over $1000 for a decades-old designed original.

Who knows, maybe the competition will come out with a 7mm domino "standard" and end the decision of whether to use 6mm or 8mm dominos in normal 18-19mm - 4/4 stock.

 

[smorgasbord]

I'm new to Domino this past year and I know you guys talk about the improvements with the 700 - I'm curious to know where the 500 falls short?

Just to summarize what was said above:
1) Three built-in flaps (20mm, 37mm, 50mm) instead of just one at 37mm. Festool came out with a right-angle foot that has two additional flaps, but you can't always use the foot (eg, if you're referencing off the base).
2) Ergonomics with a handle in-line with the push direction instead of just grabbing the housing. Sedge recommends locating your push hand at the far end of the DF500's housing to get a truly in-line push, but that's complicated since the cord comes out there.
3) Better fence ("plate") design that is more robust and stays parallel to the cutting action. Many people have had such bad experiences with the DF500's fence that they almost always reference off the base instead - some even buying pricey plates of aluminum to have difference distances from the base locked in rather than set and use the fence/plate.
4) Better fence ("plate") depth adjustment since the markings on fence match the markings on the depth stop. On the DF500, the depth stop is labeled to cut in the center of stock the width you set while the fence itself is marked in distance of centerline from the fence. One is half the other.
5) Ability to change mortise width when running or not. Doing it at the wrong time with the DF500 can damage it.
6) Plunge depth has two settable limit stops. This is great for right angle joints where you plunge deeper into the edge of one board than you do the face of the other board. Just one save of plunging too deep into a face is with a ton of money in my book (although I did mess up once even with).

 

[mino]

I'm certainly no marketing expert, but I would think now is EXACTLY the time to update an aging design. What Festool risks is that competitors come out with a better tool in terms of features and ergonomics for less money. Then, when/if Festool comes out with an update, it'll already have lost some market buzz, mind share, and may even be looked at as scrambling to catch up to the competition that is already selling them like hotcakes.
...

Of course competitors will (try to) come up with a better tool. That is a given assumption. One must plan for them being inevitably successful with that, actually. That how all wars are planned ..

But you are missing the corporate funding allocation dynamics in big orgs. (the "understand your enemy" part):
Once money was spent on R&D to develop a new tool, no more R&D will generally be approved until either:
- the tool is a complete failure with too many returns
- enough pieces are sold to recoup the R&D spent /which is usually years unless one hits a jackpot/

The "easiest" way how to "hurt" such an enemy is lack of information - this prevents other leaching on your R&D. For that to work, you try to never release a product update before the competition has released their "response". If you were a bit into gaming, the ATI/AMD versus nVidia release schedule "games" are a great way to observe that.

End result is, if you time it right:
- almost no one can leach off your R&D
- you get several years of continued "edge" on the market where while the engineers of competition may know how to beat you, but will not be allowed to /by their bean counters ..

All that for the "high" price of allowing the competition to "have their hey day" for a year or so. This gets tricky as there are parties which will defer their releases in turn. But that it the basic dynamics of innovation-based competition where leapfrogging one another is inevitable.

 

[smorgasbord]

But you are missing the corporate funding allocation dynamics in big orgs. (the "understand your enemy" part):...

You're assuming the Product Managers and Engineers at DeWalt, Bosch, Makita, Mafell, etc. need to take direction from Festool as to Domino improvements.

That strikes me as unlikely. We users already know what could be improved. So does the potential competition.

In the AMD/Nvidia gaming board "leapfroging," development took years so what appeared to the consumer to be "Oh I saw what they did, and so I did this" was really "We're going to do this." Same with Apple and Android phones - they're not copying as much as proceeding with roughly parallel development except for the occasional unique feature.

Additionally, one can look at the Fein MultiMaster, whose patent expired around 2009 and led to a proliferation of similar tools that year which exploded. Bosch led the way with OIS, which led to Starlock in 2016, and by then Fein had to join Bosch rather than the other way around. Fein lost not just the development edge, they lost the lion's share of that market - will that happen to Festool with the Domino?

I think Mafell has been lucky in that the competition for their Duo-Doweller is only pretty crappy Chinese copies. Peter Millard took them down quite convincingly a little while back. But, if the big guys were to go into dual dowelling as I suspect they're going to go into the Domino, look out. Given the popularity of dowels by both industry and DIYers, I am actually surprised someone like Bosch or DeWalt hasn't made a dual doweller. At $400 or so, they could claim some advantages over the Domino with lower cost of both the tool and the dowels.

Finally, look at the new DeWalt 620 battery router. Mid-range with good power, good ergonomics including a really nice plunge locking mechanism, and an innovative dust collection system (through one of the posts!) that arguably beats the corded Festools. Perhaps Festool is a smaller company with fewer development resources, but I think they're milking of the DF500 might come back to haunt them pretty soon.

 

[peter halle]

...And DIYers will certainly be more likely to buy a DeWalt/Bosch/Milwaukee domino clone for under $500 rather than spend over $1000 for a decades-old designed original. ...

When the patent runs out and the competitors announce their tools to compete, I sincerely doubt that they will be significantly less expensive than Festool's Domino.  It has to be an expensive tool to build.  Engineering and development costs will also need to be addressed.It was commonly anticipated that the track saws of the mainstream competitors would be so much cheaper when they came to market.  At least initially that was not the case.  Since then the Festool price increases have widened the gap.

Peter