Kreg Foreman

[Mike Goetzke]

Ha - wish I had this 11 years ago when I made tons of cabinets for our kitchen. I have a Domino and have a few jobs that I might still prefer pocket hole screws. They have the Foreman on clearance at my Lowe's for $230. Worth the bite?

 

[MikeGE]

I can't remember what I paid for mine from a German vendor, but it doesn't matter...it was worth the price and I don't regret the purchase at all.  I used it to build my mitersaw workstation, with gazillions of pocket holes.  At the time, I used it with a Kärcher shop vac because that was all I had, and it was dust and chip free.

 

[Packard]

There is something about the angle of the hole that the Kreg system (and others) use that makes it less than desirable for pocket hole work.

The more expensive (and presumably better) units mill the slot, and then drill from the opposite end parallel to the surfaces of the board and perpendicular to the cut. 

This prevents the tendency for pocket hole joinery to shift due to the angle of the pilot hole.

Unfortunately, the other systems are much more expensive. 

I have three pocket hole jigs.  An original cast aluminum Kreg unit, which unfortunately has a clamp that constantly goes out of the set pressure.

A really inexpensive Kreg unit that requires a separate clamp.

And a Porter-Cable unit that requires that you bring the work to the jig instead of the jig to the work. (It has since been discontinued, but I believe it is better than the Kreg units.

The video below from Castle, shows the difference in the angle at 0:35 seconds into the presentation.  I think this version is under $2,000.00.

They have a cheaper version that makes use of your own router, as I recall.  But I would not do that.  Changeovers would have me reaching for my Kreg unit.

It is worth a look.  I only knew about this from an old Norm Abrams video.  He was using this type of unit in his shop (but not necessarily a Castle unit).

 

[woodferret]

Castle 110 is cheaper, and has the integrated (450w comatic) router unlike the TSM shown above which is BYOR.  I'd get the 110 over the Foreman unless you do a lot of large panels.  The 110 is better suited to stretchers and other hard-to-domino bits or face frames. 

edit: I should have said mid-sized panels.  You can take the castle to the work (ala Festool style) as it's portable.  Really large one-off panels are good for this.

 

[Packard]

Since it has been mentioned, the 110 is available from the manufacturer at $675.00, or in a “professional” package for 1,100.00.

From a marketing point of view, Castle is in a tough spot.  Their obvious demographic is those Kreg customers moving up for higher productivity. But most Kreg customers seem positive about Kreg products.  They are well-designed and work as they are supposed to.  And they are priced reasonably.  The one hit they take is their extensive use of plastics.  They do use metal components, but their products are basically injection molded.  I went with th P-C unit because it was almost entirely made from cast and machined aluminum.  Old-timers like me feel more comfortable using machines made of metal.

So Castle is trying to canibalise the Kreg customer base, and those customers are by and large happy with Kreg products and Kreg (corporate).  Add to that, that is their machines cost more, and they are painted into the corner.  (Oh, and did I mention, Kreg’s customer service is excellent.

 

[jeh]

Ha - wish I had this 11 years ago when I made tons of cabinets for our kitchen. I have a Domino and have a few jobs that I might still prefer pocket hole screws. They have the Foreman on clearance at my Lowe's for $230. Worth the bite?

I made 42 window casings last fall using pocket joinery and dowels (Mafell Duo Doweler). The pocket screws were used to avoid having to clamp and knowing they will keep the joint together if the glue were to fail. The house is about 1000' from the ocean so humidity exposure varies tremendously. I started with my PC pocket hole jig, but quickly realized I needed something more production oriented. I bought the Foreman and it performed perfectly with only thing being I do not like (like others) is the heavy use of plastic. I'd pay a few hundred more for more metal, but most probably would not. Get the Foreman and don't look back. It is a lot faster to use than any jig and much more precise.

Had I knew about the Castle I would have given it serious thought, but the price premium is a big much though the pocket hole angle probably gives a better joint.

 

[Packard]

Ha - wish I had this 11 years ago when I made tons of cabinets for our kitchen. I have a Domino and have a few jobs that I might still prefer pocket hole screws. They have the Foreman on clearance at my Lowe's for $230. Worth the bite?

…The pocket screws were used to avoid having to clamp and knowing they will keep the joint together if the glue were to fail. faster to use than any jig and much more precise.

I do the same using dowels.  If they won’t show, I prefer using Confirmats over pocket holes.  The Confirmats add a lot more structure than pocket holes.  On cabinets, the through drilled holes for the Confirmats are more likely to be hidden than the pocket holes.  But I use both, depending upon the situation.

Your case (for choosing Kreg) demonstrates the marketing issue facing Castle.  Too many people are happy with the Kreg devices that they currently have, and are far more likely to graduate to the Foreman than anything that Castle has to offer. 

Although, I do appreciate the advantage of the angle difference for the screws. 

Confirmats offer all the structure of a extra strong dowel and can be removed and replaced several times.  So I can build a cabinet glue-less and knock it down.  Then add the glue and reassemble on site. I work alone, so that option is very attractive to me.

Note:  The Confirmats only work where the sides of cabinets are not visible.

If a visible fastener is not acceptable, then I use a Hafele spreading fastener in place of one of the 8mm dowels.

 

[Mike Goetzke]

Thanks for the replies. I have two projects this spring/summer that I can use this so picked it up.

 

[luvmytoolz]

[member=74278]Packard[/member] Those backing board panel clamps/screws are brilliant, very clever!

 

[Packard]

[member=74278]Packard[/member] Those backing board panel clamps/screws are brilliant, very clever!

I didn’t get those.  I only got the dowel things.  The distributor is good, and Hafele has an excellent reputation.  I may try those backing board gizmos.  I have a list of cabinets to build, and back pain that says, “Not now”.  So, we will see.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

We had a full-size Castle machine in the old shop. I never did like it though. It seems over-complicated by having 2 routers to accomplish the same thing as a simple drill bit. The one we had used the older style Porter-Cable laminate trimmers (7301) and two specialty bits.
While arguably the Kreg is a special bit too, they are available at the local big box stores.
The one we have now is the bit free-standing floor model of the Kreg. It is 100% air driven and require no electricity at all.
I also have a K-5 set, which includes the bench-mounted jig and the C-clamp style hand-held, both of which are a great addition. The big floor model just can't do it all.
For me, the best feature of the drill bit style pockets (regardless of brand) is the fact that they are easy to plug. Sometimes I have to put a pocket in a less-than-ideal location, plugging and painting over them is easy.
We actually have a big Castle machine too, but no one ever uses it.
The bigger machines with the foot pedal are far easier to use than the hand crank of the bench-top units.

 

[tjbnwi]

I have the original metal Kreg Foreman at the shop, it has been replaced by the Castle TSM-21. Everyone in the shop prefers the Castle.

Tom

 

[MikeGE]

I have no doubt the Castle is a great machine, but as a hobbyist who uses pocket hole joinery only occasionally, I would never consider buying something that is about ten times the cost of the Kreg.  If I owned a production shop and could write off the capital equipment purchase over time, I would consider it, but not as a hobbyist.

 

[Hipplewm]

Building outdoor furniture using pressure treated lumber - there is no reason for a castle

My Foreman works perfectly fine - I also have the XL insert, so I can use the HD screws, which comes in very handy
My other use case is "Shop" furniture, which also doesn't necessitate anything more expensive than a foreman, even the regular pocket hole drill stand they sell is fine
The main reason I got it was the larger material for outdoor furniture

 

[Packard]

Building outdoor furniture using pressure treated lumber - there is no reason for a castle

My Foreman works perfectly fine - I also have the XL insert, so I can use the HD screws, which comes in very handy
My other use case is "Shop" furniture, which also doesn't necessitate anything more expensive than a foreman, even the regular pocket hole drill stand they sell is fine
The main reason I got it was the larger material for outdoor furniture

The only point Norm Abrams made about his machine was the angle of the screw. He did not discuss convenience, cost  or any other point.  The reason that machine was in Abrams shop was the angle of the screw. 

I don’t know how much difference it does make.  I personally have over-tightend pocket hole screws.  Won’t the angle fix that?

The angle will allow longer screws.  Does that add to the structure?

Abrams thought the angle was important, so I made a point to mention it. 

Clearly the more expensive machine (the Castle) cost a good bit more to produce than the Foreman.  I don’t see rapacious pricing as the reason for the extra cost.

Most people using this forum own and use Festool Track saws.  Kreg produces a track saw too.  It costs less.  I don’t see any of the Festool users migrating to the cheaper Kreg. 

I think Castle’s marketing problem is as I said.  Most of the people who would upgrade to their machines are currently using Kreg.  Kreg works.  It’s cheaper.  Why change.

 

[woodferret]

I think Castle’s marketing problem is as I said.  Most of the people who would upgrade to their machines are currently using Kreg.  Kreg works.  It’s cheaper.  Why change.

Option to use downcut bit. 

As an aside, plugs also exist... it's basically a trench with one 8mm rounded corner.  Sounds like a Shaper Hub project.    Or you can buy it from Castle, like I did for the Kreg.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

I see this as a purely preference thing, not a subjectively better or worse issue.
Like I said, we had one and I used it for years, but still had a Kreg for times when the big machine just won't do it. The hand-held with the C-clamp Vice-Grips is very handy when you need to add one to a larger assembly, or on a surface that can't be reached by a big machine.
Even the tiny "one hole" unit can save the day, once in a while.

While I certainly "could" plug a Castle groove, it is nowhere as easy as cutting off a dowel.
I have even filled Castle grooves with automotive body filler. It works fine.

The down-side of the lower angle is that the pocket is longer too. This means that something like a light valence strip cross the bottom of upper cabinets, would have to be taller (or have notches in the edge)
They also leave the bottom of the pocket rounded, which works best with flathead screws. You have to be very aware that you don't split anything with the wedging action.

My choice was not without experience of both methods  [wink]

 

[Michael Kellough]

It’s always a challenge to keep the part with the screw from moving down, even when there is no glue involved. When possible I clamp the parts together. That and carefully adding a pilot hole are the best ways I’ve found so far, short of using Dominos or dowels to keep registration.

Never used the Castle system but it would take a little adjustment for me to avoid splitting the wood. On the occasions where I have to substitute a flat head screw I often get a split. I’m used to using an impact driver and letting the sound tell me when the flat bottom of a Kreg screw is home. You don’t get the same sound from a flathead screw.

 

[semenza]

I have the older front handle Kreg. I thought about buying the Foreman many times but I don't think it would be as good for my set up. I have a permanent station and it is pretty fast to use. Plus for large panels ( I can put some really big pieces in it) I think the Foreman would be harder to use. The panel shown is 36" tall and I can go taller and wider with no trouble.

With the drill holder on the right and vac attached this is really very fast to go through a whole stack of parts.

The support wings are made from a piece of composite deck board. 

I have about 32" of support to the right and 48" of support to the left. But five feet to the right in total and much more to the left.

This makes use of otherwise unused space in front of the miter saw wing.

      [attachimg=1]        [attachimg=2]        [attachimg=3]          [attachimg=4]
 
Seth

 

[Sparktrician]

There is something about the angle of the hole that the Kreg system (and others) use that makes it less than desirable for pocket hole work.

The more expensive (and presumably better) units mill the slot, and then drill from the opposite end parallel to the surfaces of the board and perpendicular to the cut. 

This prevents the tendency for pocket hole joinery to shift due to the angle of the pilot hole.

When the potential for parts to shift may be a challenge, I'm not averse to using dominoes for positioning and pocket screws to anchor everything together as the glue sets up.  It's never bitten me in the bumper.  YMMV...  [smile]