Chippiegary
Member
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2015
- Messages
- 8
Was wondering if these connectors are going to be available in the Uk ?,post and packing from USA makes them ridiculously expensive , asked the question via email from Tso no reply yet ?
Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
- Thread starter Cheese
- Start date
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2007
- Messages
- 13,126
[member=167]neilc[/member] , looking forward to your thoughts!
Peter
Peter
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2016
- Messages
- 624
Chippiegary said:
YES, www.axminster.co.uk will have stock as soon as we get production ramped up to supply everyone. Our dealers are not set up yet Meanwhile we can fill individual small orders and ship via US Postal International First Class. We will announce it via our TSO INSIDER newsletter. GO to www.tsoproducts.com and click on subscribe.
Thank you for asking!
Hans and Eric
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2016
- Messages
- 624
Gregor said:
[member=53905]Gregor[/member] - on the European continent TSO Products are well stocked byhttp://www.gereedschappro.nl/ in Amsterdam.
as we replied earlier to the availability question in the UK, we are gearing up to supply stock of the GRC-12 Connector Set to our international dealers. In the meantime we can fill small individual International orders via US Postal International First Class mail.
Hans and Eric
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2016
- Messages
- 624
Corwin said:
[member=182]Corwin[/member] - glad you raised that question because we addressed that close tolerance concern and guide rail variability from the beginning. Remember that our GRS-16 series Guide Rail Squares are designed to handle the normal production variances of Guide Rail Extrusions. We sweated that quite a bit in the beginning to get it right and have that issue well in hand. Your comment highlights the fact that there is more to getting it right than meets the eye.
Thank you for nudging us to point this out. We regularly ask ourselves if we are providing too much information about our products and our customer's eyes glaze over or if we don't provide enough. We'll add a paragraph about this on our website product page.
Hans
I put the GRC-12 connectors on a pair of 1080 guide rails.
The GRC-12 units are slightly thicker than the Festool ones given the bevel. They are made from aluminum rather than steel. They include allen head screws and a wrench rather than typical straight-head screws for adjustment. (BTW, I also made a set of connectors similar to the Makita ones out of a couple of pieces of steel and they work, but the allen screws are a little small for much torque to tighten them and I don't use them as much as I have used the Festool connectors because of that.)
I installed the GRC-12 units in one rail, tightened them and then slid the second rail in place leaving a slight space between the two rails - maybe 1/16" and tightened them up with no straightedge. Upon checking with a Festool level for a straightedge, the outside edge was off by .004" over the length of the level. However, when aligning the level to the inside extrusion, it was dead-on with no measurable error in alignment.
I then picked up the guide rail in the middle and shook it a bit while on the edge, to see how it deflected when two were clamped together. I did notice upon placing it back down on the bench that the rails were no longer straight. They were out of alignment by perhaps 1/8" and I had to straighten them out. I did not try a similar technique with the Festool connectors but I would bet they too would slip. I had hoped the GRC-12 connectors would 'hold' given the beveled clamping method. But there is a lot of force across a nearly 2200mm rail when you start shaking it.
To be honest, I'm pretty careful with connected rails when moving them so my 'shake test' might be considered a bit extreme. But I wanted to see if the connectors would keep things in alignment.
I'll spend some more time with them and report back what I find.
I'd say the connectors are definitely easier to install and get set up - and I like the hex head screws for easier adjustment. Based on a quick test, they aligned upon first install very well. But I think regardless of the connectors (festool, TSO, Makita) you're going to want to still use care when moving connected rails to insure they stay straight.
neil
TSO thickness
[attachimg=1]
Festool thickness
[attachimg=2]
.004 alignment variation on outside extrusion of rail
[attachimg=3]
No alignment variation on inside extrusion
[attachimg=4]
The GRC-12 units are slightly thicker than the Festool ones given the bevel. They are made from aluminum rather than steel. They include allen head screws and a wrench rather than typical straight-head screws for adjustment. (BTW, I also made a set of connectors similar to the Makita ones out of a couple of pieces of steel and they work, but the allen screws are a little small for much torque to tighten them and I don't use them as much as I have used the Festool connectors because of that.)
I installed the GRC-12 units in one rail, tightened them and then slid the second rail in place leaving a slight space between the two rails - maybe 1/16" and tightened them up with no straightedge. Upon checking with a Festool level for a straightedge, the outside edge was off by .004" over the length of the level. However, when aligning the level to the inside extrusion, it was dead-on with no measurable error in alignment.
I then picked up the guide rail in the middle and shook it a bit while on the edge, to see how it deflected when two were clamped together. I did notice upon placing it back down on the bench that the rails were no longer straight. They were out of alignment by perhaps 1/8" and I had to straighten them out. I did not try a similar technique with the Festool connectors but I would bet they too would slip. I had hoped the GRC-12 connectors would 'hold' given the beveled clamping method. But there is a lot of force across a nearly 2200mm rail when you start shaking it.
To be honest, I'm pretty careful with connected rails when moving them so my 'shake test' might be considered a bit extreme. But I wanted to see if the connectors would keep things in alignment.
I'll spend some more time with them and report back what I find.
I'd say the connectors are definitely easier to install and get set up - and I like the hex head screws for easier adjustment. Based on a quick test, they aligned upon first install very well. But I think regardless of the connectors (festool, TSO, Makita) you're going to want to still use care when moving connected rails to insure they stay straight.
neil
TSO thickness
[attachimg=1]
Festool thickness
[attachimg=2]
.004 alignment variation on outside extrusion of rail
[attachimg=3]
No alignment variation on inside extrusion
[attachimg=4]
Attachments
Good test, Neil. Thanks for the pics and write-up. I am curious why these would not be longer - seems that a longer length would be more secure. I too am careful when connecting rails, but I have had them move and it is frustrating. I was hoping this would solve that issue, but looks like that might not be the case. I would be interested in hearing how these perform as you put them through more testing. Thanks!
rmwarren
Member
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2010
- Messages
- 3,063
Neil thanks for the testing/results. One of the best aspects of the squares is not even having to wonder if it.s square, i.e. I just attach and cut. If you have to stop and check the joined rails frequently just for peace of mind it will somewhat eliminate the benefits of their self aligning aspect.
Just my [2cents]
RMW
Just my [2cents]
RMW
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2016
- Messages
- 624
FOG Members and customers:
We appreciate the comments and feedback. Neil’s report is very helpful, too – thank you.
We made a mistake in judgement to start shipping because we got such excellent results in testing- obviously not sufficiently “life-like” testing – Lesson learned:
no new TSO products go into production without outside BETA testing.
Based on what we have learned, we launched an initiative to test further design refinements. When we have new parts to BETA test, we will put them in the hands of volunteer individuals, including some current purchasers, to see how far we can improve on the original design.
Meanwhile we have stopped accepting orders and notified purchasers of this product. If we can demonstrate in BETA testing that we have in fact achieved the desired improvements we will exchange customer owned GRC-12’s at no charge before resuming production shipments. Customers who wish to return their GRC-12 will of course get a refund with free return shipping.
The first step is to get to next design revision and complete testing. We expect this will take us into February. Meanwhile, thank you for your continued support.
Hans
We appreciate the comments and feedback. Neil’s report is very helpful, too – thank you.
We made a mistake in judgement to start shipping because we got such excellent results in testing- obviously not sufficiently “life-like” testing – Lesson learned:
no new TSO products go into production without outside BETA testing.
Based on what we have learned, we launched an initiative to test further design refinements. When we have new parts to BETA test, we will put them in the hands of volunteer individuals, including some current purchasers, to see how far we can improve on the original design.
Meanwhile we have stopped accepting orders and notified purchasers of this product. If we can demonstrate in BETA testing that we have in fact achieved the desired improvements we will exchange customer owned GRC-12’s at no charge before resuming production shipments. Customers who wish to return their GRC-12 will of course get a refund with free return shipping.
The first step is to get to next design revision and complete testing. We expect this will take us into February. Meanwhile, thank you for your continued support.
Hans
No way a company such as Festool or Bosch or the like can respond to the market in a speedy manner like that.
By the way, a while back, TSO has indicated a new Domino Joiner accessory is being worked on. Any update on that (we don't know what it is or what it does based on the scan info. provided at that time)?
By the way, a while back, TSO has indicated a new Domino Joiner accessory is being worked on. Any update on that (we don't know what it is or what it does based on the scan info. provided at that time)?
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2015
- Messages
- 850
ChuckM said:
[member=57948]ChuckM[/member] - while it's off-topic for this thread let me share with you that BETA testing resulted in the addition of another feature benefit which is going back into machining the next btach of BETA test units. NO Launch date yet. Staytuned to TSO INSIDER newsletter [smile]
Hans
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2015
- Messages
- 850
box185 said:
[member=67413]box185[/member] - thank you for offering a helpful suggestion. We agree and we seriously looked at the wedge approach as well as other means of adjusting the crossection of the Connector. But very quickly the complexity, production cost and resulting selling price moved this out of final consideration. We're not afraid of revisiting any of these alternatives should we not be successful in producing a "TSO worthy" configuration of the current concept.
Keep the suggestions coming while we modify and test the current concept!
Hans
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2015
- Messages
- 850
more on the wedgelock concept:
here is a link with a more detailed illustration
http://www.wakefield-vette.com/products/accessories/wedgelocks/-d-series.aspx
One of the challenges TSO faced in choosing the design direction was the fact that our Connector would need to be adjustable from the "side' of the assembly - rather than in the preferred longtitudinal direction. The wedgelock design as you can see from the exploded catalog view is aleady a complex set of parts in its existing arrangement. Now add the need for adjustment from the side and you can see why we felt we should move on to other approaches.
That said, the idea of searching for inspiration in unrelated technical fields is certainly the right one.
During the Cold War era the Soviet Union made a concerted effort to find ways to apply results of their space program research to other commercial applications. After "that" Wall came down, this research effort became public. I took the opportunity to attend a day long training session in a Lockheed Martin conference room to familiarize myself with this approach to inventing solutions. Certainly opened my mind to always look much more broadly at possible solutions.
I could imagine that in the medical field there are methods and devices which could inspire. In our woodworking applications the challenge quickly narrows down to low product cost at (relatively) very low unit volume - which limits what you can spend on tooling.
Keep the ideas coming!
Hans
here is a link with a more detailed illustration
http://www.wakefield-vette.com/products/accessories/wedgelocks/-d-series.aspx
One of the challenges TSO faced in choosing the design direction was the fact that our Connector would need to be adjustable from the "side' of the assembly - rather than in the preferred longtitudinal direction. The wedgelock design as you can see from the exploded catalog view is aleady a complex set of parts in its existing arrangement. Now add the need for adjustment from the side and you can see why we felt we should move on to other approaches.
That said, the idea of searching for inspiration in unrelated technical fields is certainly the right one.
During the Cold War era the Soviet Union made a concerted effort to find ways to apply results of their space program research to other commercial applications. After "that" Wall came down, this research effort became public. I took the opportunity to attend a day long training session in a Lockheed Martin conference room to familiarize myself with this approach to inventing solutions. Certainly opened my mind to always look much more broadly at possible solutions.
I could imagine that in the medical field there are methods and devices which could inspire. In our woodworking applications the challenge quickly narrows down to low product cost at (relatively) very low unit volume - which limits what you can spend on tooling.
Keep the ideas coming!
Hans