Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad

[bruegf]

I'm glad there's other safety features ... I still hate it, will never touch it ... think the technology is foolish and will cause more accidents through complacency that it'll avoid.

That's the great thing about free markets and democracies, you are free to hate it, and just as free to not buy it.   The only point I've been trying to make, is the technology is just another level of insurance.   I have a dislike of car, home, and medical insurance companies, I still buy insurance policies, just because "stuff" happens not matter how careful you are and happens even more often if you not careful.  Hopefully I'll never need any of them again, but its very unlikely so I continue to pay for insurance.  

I'd like to see the statistics that show that because the brake can help minimize the impact of table saw accidents people will have more accidents because the technology makes them more complacent.  I'm still just as afraid of the table saw as I always have been.  One data point doesn't a statistic make, so again, maybe I'm wrong but that sounds like one giant leap of an assumption.  One of the reasons I like my TS55 so much is that my hands are on the saw away from the blade, and not on the work piece near the blade.

It is interesting that you would preach "taking a careful look", but still have to disclaim you points with "(as far as I know)" ... good research there! [smile]

I KNOW that you can't override the brake permanently by removing it or leaving a switch in the wrong position such that brake is disabled the next time you use the saw and don't remember or know it.   The reason I qualified it with an "as far as I know" is that I don't know if there's a mod that can be made to the control module or brake cartridge, or if for some idiotic reason there's someone on ebay or elsewhere selling an override.   I'm smart enough to know that I don't know everything, and that even some of the things I think I know for sure are incorrect, or have become incorrect since I first learned about it.   Sorry that I'm not as all knowing as you are, but there it is.  And FYI, I did research the saw for over a year before I finally convinced myself to spend the money for it, including reading reviews, looking at info on the SS site, using the saw in the store, attending a couple of live "hot dog" demos, and mining info from woodworking forums and opinions from other woodworkers, so I'd be willing to bet that I've taken a much longer and careful look at the saw and technology than you have, but I again since I don't know how carefully you've looked at it, again, maybe I'm wrong.  

Fred

 

[bruegf]

bruegf

I talked about this with Tom  Bellemare at length a couple years ago when he first learned about Whirlwind Tools .  We thought the 1/8 second stop time is likely okay because that is triggered long before a body part touches the blade. Assuming one isn't feeding the material through the blade at an unreasonably fast rate, it seems as if the blade will be stopped before the body part makes it to the blade.  An eighth of a second seems like a lot compared to milliseconds for SS, but in this case with the rate of feed vs distance from the blade at the time the technology triggers the stopping mechanism , it seems that it will work.

And with the option to install this on a variety of saws and without the need for a manufacturer to re-engineer their equipment , I think this thing will be a success if it comes to market.  I'd buy one immediately.

Yes, I saw that too, and for normal use where I'm feeding wood into the blade, my guess is that it would work fine.  Where I question how effective it would be is the case like kick back where it happens so quickly that you don't even realize it until after the event is over.  Unlike some of the others involved in this discussion, I'm not knocking the technology, like the SS, I think its far better than nothing, and I do like the fact that unlike SS this can be retofitted to existing saws and other tools.

Fred

 

[bruegf]

I'm glad there's other safety features ... I still hate it, will never touch it ... think the technology is foolish and will cause more accidents through complacency that it'll avoid.

Glad for you that you like it - be happy with that [wink]

It is interesting that you would preach "taking a careful look", but still have to disclaim you points with "(as far as I know)" ... good research there! [smile]

Kev, I understand your view point.  My view on this topic is different (and yet I don't own a Saw Stop saw).  Here's my problem with your take on this.  Guys like yourself, hobbyist woodworkers, are at some risk of table saw injuries.  Now consider how much the risk goes up for professionals like me, and I'm only a moderate table saw user.  Guys that work in a cabinet shop that can use table saws all day long, everyday are at far greater risk than I am.  Tradesman and cabinet shop workers would benefit from some extra protection, so would you.  

As for the Saw Stop causing more accidents that it prevents out of complacency, sorry I don't buy it.  I agree it may cause some people to have lees fear of the saw and that might lead to some small number of accidents.  Here's the kicker when it comes to complacency, I and a great number of table saw users become complacent without the Saw Stop safety feature.  When this safety feature become practical for portable table saws I will likely jump on board.              

Well said Brice, I agree!   I think the old saying "familiarity breeds contempt" or in our case "familiarity breeds complacency" is far more likely than having a safety device causing complacency.

Fred

 

[bruegf]

I'm glad there's other safety features ... I still hate it, will never touch it ... think the technology is foolish and will cause more accidents through complacency that it'll avoid.

Glad for you that you like it - be happy with that [wink]

It is interesting that you would preach "taking a careful look", but still have to disclaim you points with "(as far as I know)" ... good research there! [smile]

Kev, I understand your view point.  My view on this topic is different (and yet I don't own a Saw Stop saw).  Here's my problem with your take on this.  Guys like yourself, hobbyist woodworkers, are at some risk of table saw injuries.  Now consider how much the risk goes up for professionals like me, and I'm only a moderate table saw user.  Guys that work in a cabinet shop that can use table saws all day long, everyday are at far greater risk than I am.  Tradesman and cabinet shop workers would benefit from some extra protection, so would you.  

As for the Saw Stop causing more accidents that it prevents out of complacency, sorry I don't buy it.  I agree it may cause some people to have lees fear of the saw and that might lead to some small number of accidents.  Here's the kicker when it comes to complacency, I and a great number of table saw users become complacent without the Saw Stop safety feature.  When this safety feature become practical for portable table saws I will likely jump on board.              

Well said Brice, I agree!   I think the old saying "familiarity breeds contempt" or in our case "familiarity breeds complacency" is far more likely than having a safety device causing complacency.

And even if complacency wasn't a factor, the guys that work in a cabinet shop that use table saws all day long, everyday are at far greater risk just because they spend so much more time at the saw than the rest of us.

Fred

 

[leakyroof]

The ad campaign that Saw Stop used a couple of years ago was very effective with my wife. She STILL wants me to get rid of my Unisaw and its aftermarket over arm blade guard and replace it with the Saw Stop Table Saw. [eek]
Interesting problem though, the Saw Stop 52" model, like the newer Powermatic and other saws has a wider table foot print than my 2005 Unisaw. So I would have to really rearrange my basement shop to accommodate any of the newer saws since they all seem to be about 10" wider than what I have currently. [mad]
I could opt for a 36" range model since I don't big Cab parts that often , but I'm not thrilled that I'm limiting my cutting ability to fit any newer saw into my space.
This is why I'm waiting to see where the Whirlwind option shakes out at.

 

[bruegf]

Unfortunately the only choice we may have in the future is to buy a saw with his technology or not buy a table saw. That's really his endgame. He's been heavily lobbying the CPSC to get his technology,  or 'other technology'  mandated for any new manufactured saw.

There is no other tech I know of that is currently viable. Whirlwind looks great, but as stated previously there has been no real public movement in many months. If sensing technology is mandated, then it's Gass or the manufacturers have to come up with something on their own. Or quit. With Gass being a patent lawyer, and the USPTO being so utterly incompetent (if you follow the tech sector you already know this), how likely is it that a competing technology could be produced in a short enough time frame that doesn't infringe on his patents and satisfies the mandate?

It can be hard to separate the man from the machine with the manner in which he has operated. He is Sawstop. I think it is an absolute fantastic job of innovation. I'm pretty sure when I am at an opportunity to upgrade my saw it will have that technology. I don't require it, but view it as a last gasp of protection beyond my honed fear of that blade.

I don't think there has been a Sawstop thread on the Internet that hasn't devolved into a shouting match, and this is no different.

I'd bet in time, because of the nature of our society and its tendency towards litigation, you may be right about the future.  I don't like this being mandated, but even if it is, I'd bet once it is there will be other innovations out there in a short time that will offer other alternatives and will help keep the price of adding the technology to products down.  If there's money to be made, alternatives will appear, I have no doubt.  I'd actually like to own some Whirlwind stock (bought just before the brake feature is mandated) - I'd be willing to bet the stock would skyrocket in value.

It really is a shame that none of the other companies the technology was offered to was forward thinking enough to use it.  Maybe SS's licensing options were too expensive, or maybe none of them took the technology seriously, I have no idea. but it would have avoided all the nonsense that swirls around this now.

It can be hard to separate the man/company from the engineering and I'm guilty of that myself.  I'm not an Apple fan.  After the experience I had from the one Apple product I bought, I've never even considered buying another.  My motto is "you can buy better but you can't pay more".  No I don't want to getting into an argument about the merits of Apple and their products, and I'm more than willing to agree that Apple has many good products, some impressive innovation, and for some groups of users they may well be the best option.  But I still don't like Apple (or Microsoft for that matter, but that's a different story).

You're right about SS threads, just like some of the other forums when Festool is mentioned.  Its a shame the conversation can't be kept to logical, rational discussion of the merits, but apparently it's difficult for some to separate their emotion from the discussion.

Fred

 

[Sparktrician]

It can be hard to separate the man/company from the engineering...

 

That's the easy part for me.  I recognize that the Sawstop saws incorporate high quality and advanced technology.  The flip side is that I have no use for someone that makes it so difficult to incorporate the technology without significantly lining his pockets, and when that fails, uses governmental regulation processes to shove the technology and costs up the public's bumper.  If it's THAT good, I'd suggest that it could be a pro bono contribution to the industry.  I'd be far more inclined to be supportive in that case. 

 

[upscale]

If it's THAT good, I'd suggest that it could be a pro bono contribution to the industry.  I'd be far more inclined to be supportive in that case. 

Really??? If you invented the SawStop and put considerable time, effort and money into its creation, would you think about donating it to the industry? If you say "yes", then you're more of of a giving person that I could ever be. And, I consider myself a generous person in a number of instances. The only thoughts I'd be having is how can I market this device and how can it make money for me.

 

[Brice Burrell]

I won't ever begrudge someone for making themselves a good living. The lobbying is what is a bit too much for me, and being an expert witness in trials against the companies that turned him down.

Unfortunately this is what it takes to move the safety standard forward in this industry.  Really, think about that, here's a device that could save an untold number of people from gruesome/debilitating injuries and users and the industry is fighting it because of money.   

 

[Sparktrician]

If it's THAT good, I'd suggest that it could be a pro bono contribution to the industry.  I'd be far more inclined to be supportive in that case. 

Really??? If you invented the SawStop and put considerable time, effort and money into its creation, would you think about donating it to the industry? If you say "yes", then you're more of of a giving person that I could ever be. And, I consider myself a generous person in a number of instances. The only thoughts I'd be having is how can I market this device and how can it make money for me.

Making a decent return on investment is one thing.  Tying the concept up as tightly in patents as he has and testifying against those that choose to not use his invention is something else entirely.  His actions seem almost Quixotic.  I don't doubt that his invention can save people from significant injuries, but his attitude, frankly, is a major strike against him. 

 

[Kev]

This is probably the nub of it for me - profiting from safety. There should always be generous incentives to make the world a better place - but there should be reasonable upper limits on the level of exploitation possible.
If the US were to specifically mandate saw stop technology to be used in all table saws, they should pay for the technology and provide it free of royalties, etc to manufacturers ...

Call me a hippie - but I see the world differently ... I'd also like to see a world not based on greed and money, but please don't ask me for the overnight solution.

 

[peter halle]

I just visited Facebook and guess what;  a posting from a legal firm about table saw injuries.

Lucky me.

 

[Kev]

I'm glad there's other safety features ... I still hate it, will never touch it ... think the technology is foolish and will cause more accidents through complacency that it'll avoid.

Glad for you that you like it - be happy with that [wink]

It is interesting that you would preach "taking a careful look", but still have to disclaim you points with "(as far as I know)" ... good research there! [smile]

Kev, I understand your view point.  My view on this topic is different (and yet I don't own a Saw Stop saw).  Here's my problem with your take on this.  Guys like yourself, hobbyist woodworkers, are at some risk of table saw injuries.  Now consider how much the risk goes up for professionals like me, and I'm only a moderate table saw user.  Guys that work in a cabinet shop that can use table saws all day long, everyday are at far greater risk than I am.  Tradesman and cabinet shop workers would benefit from some extra protection, so would you.  

As for the Saw Stop causing more accidents that it prevents out of complacency, sorry I don't buy it.  I agree it may cause some people to have lees fear of the saw and that might lead to some small number of accidents.  Here's the kicker when it comes to complacency, I and a great number of table saw users become complacent without the Saw Stop safety feature.  When this safety feature become practical for portable table saws I will likely jump on board.              

Time will tell ... and that'll be the case with many of the saw stop related things (both safety and politics).

To me a real safety mechanism would take away any need for hands to go near the blade for any reason ... maybe remote waldo arms [wink] ... then you could use them with the bandsaw, spindle moulder, planer !!

 

[jonathan-m]

I really don't "get" all the resentment towards sawstop regardless of how the inventor/CEO or their marketing campaigns portray themselves.

This is a great technology and unless or until there's something better out there right now, every manufacturer that takes health and safety serious, should strive to license this.
How on earth can extra safety measures ever be a bad thing?

I wonder if any of those who are opposing sawstop so vocally think they are the one that'll never slip or have an accident. Will they still be so vocal when they run their hand in a spinning blade in that split second of distraction?
I perfectly respect personal choice. And those who choose to ignore safety measures will always still have that choice. But like others have already said, there's also a responsibility to your fellow woodworker as well. Some have to work many hours a day with the table saw, and have to do it on shitty equipment because their boss is too cheap. Holding back general safety measures is just irresponsible. It's simply better for it to be there with the possibility for it to be turned off, than not be there at all. If not for yourself, for someone else who has to work in less than optimal circumstances.

Some things are more important than pride or standing by some or other principal in my humble opinion. General health care is, or at least should be the number one priority for the government, manufacturers and consumers alike.

In short it's my personal opinion that the end user is a clear winner here. This is a great innovation/technology which every woodworker should support to push awareness and the industry in general forward.

 

[Kev]

I really don't "get" all the resentment towards sawstop regardless of how the inventor/CEO or their marketing campaigns portray themselves.

This is a great technology and unless or until there's something better out there right now, every manufacturer that takes health and safety serious, should strive to license this.
How on earth can extra safety measures ever be a bad thing?
I wonder if any of those who are opposing sawstop think they are the one that'll never slip or have an accident. Will they still be so vocal when they run their hand in a spinning blade in that split second of distraction?

Some things are more important than pride or standing by some or other principal in my humble opinion. General health care is, or at least should be the number one priority for both for manufacturers and consumers alike.

Just follow your thinking through to the natural conclusion ... every "potentially" dangerous item will fall into "protect the user at any cost" ... meaning that at some point in the future mr average will never be able to afford woodworking (or any other hobby that involves something sharp, heavy, fast moving, etc). If Gass gets saw stop mandated, planer stop, spindle stop and bandsaw stop will be out within months.

When it comes to solving a problem you deal with the WHY first and the WHAT second. Here we have a solution the deals with the WHAT - someone stuck a body part in a blade ... instead of the WHY - their hands or some other body part were near the blade. Saw stop does not deal with projectiles or anything of that sort. Now here on the FOG most people seem to be reasonably savvy, but there'll be people out there buying saw stops thinking that the can never be injured in any way.

It's very clear to me that a large part of the problem in the US with table saws could be significantly addressed with education.

Woodworking can be a dangerous profession, heck ... getting the trees down in the first place is one of the most dangerous jobs in existence!

Consider ...

I don't expect my bicycle to stop me riding into a bus (yes, obviously on this thread a number of you wish I would ride into a bus), if I was at fault it would be my own stupid fault, if the bus hit me, they're at fault of course. If someone invents a bus avoidance system for a bicycle (not cars, not cliffs, not dogs, etc) that quadruples the prices of a cheap bike and could add thousands to an expensive bike I would be extremely upset if the cost and technology was forced on me. I would expect a better solution to be something that monitored attention and potentially direction of vision ... then you have something that would aid in avoiding many things, but could also be applied to other situations (dealing with the WHY - lack of attention or a distraction, rather that a WHAT ... hitting a bus).

... and before anyone starts back on the seat belt analogy - it solves a WHAT, not a WHY. Seat belts today are still not much more sophisticated than tying yourself to a buggy with a rope (and a set belt in a car has never saved a baby in a pram on a crossing).

Maybe our time on this thread would be better spent constructing a FOG top 20 safety tips for using a table saw! [big grin]

 

[RONWEN]

I just visited Facebook and guess what;  a posting from a legal firm about table saw injuries.

Lucky me.

It was only a matter of time for these ads. Ambulance chasers just can't overlook this "low hanging fruit" when promoting their skills.

I can't imagine that SawStop would have connection with promoting these types of lawsuits -- they are just simply smarter than that.

 

[dpeagles]

OK, here we have it - any table saw that can't avoid damaging a sausage as it is intentionally pushed through the blade is defective. You should be a lawyer.

Making fun of his statement doesn't make it any less valid.  If a manufacturer chooses not to offer an available safety device that could have prevented an accident, the question is how much responsibility do they share for the end result.  Hint:  the answer is not none and it's not all. 

FUN?

I am being deadly serious. The only proof I've seen is that a saw stop can protect a sausage if it is slowly moved towards the blade. I have no solid evidence that it's protect against anything else.

There's nothing to protect manufacturers against uneducated, clumsy, drunk, tired, distracted, negligent, drugged, angry or other operation of a table saw ... or any other tool for that matter - other than counter legal cases. AWESOME!

If people want to buy a saw stop, good for them!

People comparing a saw stop to a seat belt need to think a little broader ... I wear a seat belt because there are so many morons on the road drinking coffee and chatting on the phone that can kill me. I'm not afraid that someone will come into my workspace, take the guard off my saw and push my hand into it. I know NOT TO PUT MY HAND NEAR A FAST SPINNING BLADE.

Anyone that thinks the correct approach to workshop safety is to mandate saw stop or make it viable to sue a table saw manufacturer for not offering saw stop technology should also think it necessary to ban bandsaws, spindle moulders, planers, etc ... they're all dangerous tools if handled incorrectly. Just like guns! (which I personally think should have DNA encoding to the owner to prevent anyone else ever firing them ... and that on every weapon in existence - a minor expense!).

How many of the 30,000 accidents happen without a push stick? without a blade guard? using a dado blade set? inadequate lighting?

Start down this path and the tool world will split as the US legal system has a field day crippling and profiting from the US tool market ... at which point all non US tool manufacturers will probably exit the US market.

I don't really care - I don't live in the US, but can't you see what you're doing here?

By this line of thinking, why should steel workers wear safety lines to prevent a fall.  They are too good to fall to their death.  Why should roofers wear safety lines?  They are too good to fall off the roof.  Yet over and over people fall off high objects even with years of experience.

Ever had a motorcycle rider say " I'm not worried, most of those hurt on motorcycles have been drinking so I always ride sober".  Whatever you have to tell yourself to convince yourself it will never happen to you.

Like I said, I don't own sawstop but I certainly see the positive aspects of their design.

 

[tbellemare]

I have a few friends and a sister-in-law that are lawyers. Two of them are personal injury attorneys (read, ambulance chasers), one has largely specialized in intellectual property protection, one is a big shot corporate attorney in La Jolla, and the other is just getting started.

The Bar requires members to engage in continuing education periodically. The IP protector once told me that prominent among those courses were ones that emphasize the "Pain & Suffering" du jour. One year, it was all about mesothelioma, then all about mutant mold, and on and on...

I point this out because it seems to me that it's sort of part of the way our legal system is structured that there is encouragement for our second highest profession to be dragged into the mud if they aren't careful.

The whole mold scare started a few miles from here in the house of a recently divorced marketing expert. Apparently, she wanted to cash out of the house that she won in the separation of assets. The TX State Bar blew it and those "horribly evil and deadly" spores all over the state and beyond. Soon, the insurance companies followed suit (pun intended).

Tom

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

Everyone, I think this has run its course and opinions have been expressed. I'm going to lock the thread so we can get back to talking tools rather than law.  [wink]

Shane