Lead Paint Removal

[dunacn]

Hey guys, a newbie here. Last summer we purchased a 150+ year old farmhouse with plenty of old lead paint. My plan was to start paint removal on window sills and surround (18" deep) with Rotex 150 and ct36. My grit plan was to start with Saphire 50, Granat 60, 80, 120, and finish with Brilliant 180. Sills will be repainted when finished. Any suggestions on plan? More importantly, any suggestions on the precautions that should be taken with the old lead paint. My wife thinks I may be putting too much confidence in the dust extraction ability of the equipment.

Thanks!

 

[AlexThePalex]

I generally do rough paint removal with the Rotex starting 50 grit Saphir, 80 grit Granat/Brilliant to get rid of the scratches and Granat 120 to finish. Paint grade wood doesn't really need to be sanded beyond 120.

When working with lead paint you want as little dust as possible. A sander turns everything into dust so no matter how good your suction is (and Festools' is good) you'll always have dust that doesn't get sucked up. Best way is too avoid that in the first place by removing as much as possible with a scraper, by burning or a chemical stripper. This way the paint comes off in flakes instead of dust. Only use the sander to remove the last bits left.

 

[teocaf]

Hi, welcome to the FOG.  Looks like Alex already posted some great advice.  Yeah, don't be too hasty to convert all the paint into powder by sanding.  What escapes the vac will spread quickly and widely.  This video shows some good techniques including one for using multiple scrapers that get sharpened regularly:

http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/video/0,,20468430,00.html

Go with the sander only after getting most of the stuff off with the other methods.

 

[philphilop]

NEVER burn off lead paint NEVER, Get advise and your local regulations from your environment officer, in Europe you need a licence to remove lead paint so would assume it also applies to the U.S. I

 

[Rob Z]

DO NOT use open flame to burn off paint.  The use of some higher-temperature heat guns are now prohibited, as well.

For more information, consult the (voluminous) information available at the EPA's website for requirements of RRP.  Your state might also have additional requirements that exceed the requirements of the EPA's RRP Program.

I generally do rough paint removal with the Rotex starting 50 grit Saphir, 80 grit Granat/Brilliant to get rid of the scratches and Granat 120 to finish. Paint grade wood doesn't really need to be sanded beyond 120.

When working with lead paint you want as little dust as possible. A sander turns everything into dust so no matter how good your suction is (and Festools' is good) you'll always have dust that doesn't get sucked up. Best way is too avoid that in the first place by removing as much as possible with a scraper, by burning or a chemical stripper. This way the paint comes off in flakes instead of dust. Only use the sander to remove the last bits left.

 

[Rob Z]

Good morning dunacn

Your wife's instincts are on the mark.  You shouldn't count on the dust extractor/sander combo to contain all the lead-contaminated dust or chips that will be removed.  For that reason, the guidelines of EPA  RRP require a multi-step approach to removing paint such as what you have in your old house.

This multi-step approach includes sealing off the work area, using appropriate tools and methods to remove the paint (flames and high temp heat guns are specifically prohibited), use of PPE by workers, certain clean up procedures to be followed afterwards (including using a HEPA vac such as a Festool dust extractor, which complies with the RRP standard) , final verification using  certain testing methods, and using specified  procedures to dispose of the contaminated materials and  used PPE. 

You are exempt from these requirements as a homeowner doing work on your residence, but with some exceptions (such as if day care if provided in the house or part of the house is rented out to tenants).  If anyone is hired to do any part of this work, then it becomes a requirement to follow EPA RRP.  State and local laws might require more, but not less, than EPA RRP. 

So, the bottom line is that you should use your sander and CT combo, or other safe methods, but only with the other steps such as wearing PPE.  There is  a huge amount of information out there.  If you wish to know more, start by reading all the info at the EPA's website on the RRP Program (this is not a quick and easy read).  Check also to see if your state has additional requirements.

 

[AlexThePalex]

in Europe you need a licence to remove lead paint

Got any info on that, links? I never heard of that, if it were true every painter would need a license because the lead paint is everywhere in older properties. As far as I know, lead paint is not (yet) treated as asbestos.

 

[shaun.mcc]

Good morning dunacn

Your wife's instincts are on the mark.  You shouldn't count on the dust extractor/sander combo to contain all the lead-contaminated dust or chips that will be removed.  For that reason, the guidelines of EPA  RRP require a multi-step approach to removing paint such as what you have in your old house.

This multi-step approach includes sealing off the work area, using appropriate tools and methods to remove the paint (flames and high temp heat guns are specifically prohibited), use of PPE by workers, certain clean up procedures to be followed afterwards (including using a HEPA vac such as a Festool dust extractor, which complies with the RRP standard) , final verification using  certain testing methods, and using specified  procedures to dispose of the contaminated materials and used PPE. 

You are exempt from these requirements as a homeowner doing work on your residence, but with some exceptions (such as if day care if provided in the house or part of the house is rented out to tenants).  If anyone is hired to do any part of this work, then it becomes a requirement to follow EPA RRP.  State and local laws might require more, but not less, than EPA RRP. 

So, the bottom line is that you should use your sander and CT combo, or other safe methods, but only with the other steps such as wearing PPE.  There is  a huge amount of information out there.  If you wish to know more, start by reading all the info at the EPA's website on the RRP Program (this is not a quick and easy read).  Check also to see if your state has additional requirements.

Rob is right on. I was going to recommend searching the EPA's booklet on lead remediation. There is a reason that you even tarp the exterior perimeter ground of the project house when doing this work..as the concern is also ground water lead contamination. If you have small kids around be even more vigilant, likewise, if you are living in the home at the time, or anyone else is around. It may make sense to work with a abatement contractor that will finish up your work at a minimal cost.

I would definitely buy a negative air machine (I have this one) to be in the room where your working, zip walls, etc. The CFM's should match your air volume in your work area to ensure the HEPA filter gets enough of the air to be efficient..get a case of pre-filters too.

PPE is extremely important...I'm not sure if a simple N95 mask will suffice...the EPA guide will probably say.

Scrapping is good idea...just hold your CT36 vac house at the same time as your scrape.

Good Luck and Welcome to the FOG!  [smile]

Shaun

 

[dunacn]

Yikes!  I should have bought a different house. Would it make more sense to just sand down the rough areas and paint?

 

[philphilop]

in Europe you need a licence to remove lead paint

Got any info on that, links? I never heard of that, if it were true every painter would need a license because the lead paint is everywhere in older properties. As far as I know, lead paint is not (yet) treated as asbestos.

I work on buildings all over Europe that are between 600 and 1200 years old so coming across lead based paints and lead infested pigments is common.
The buildings I work on are of monuments of historical interest so I require certification to identify hazards.
I am a joiner / carpenter / window-door-cabinet maker and have been doing this type of work for 30 years, since I was 18.
I HATE painting with a passion, as a joiner I always say, painters destroy and cover up my fine work, but I am still required to get a licence to, Identity, analyse and deploy procedures for working within the area identified, without this licence I would not be insured to indemnify my work or liability insurance.
I have lived in France since 2000 and the lead paint directive became law, from memory, in 2002.
I have to renew my licence every 5 years  which includes a 2 day update course on new regulations etc.
I have never met a painter who does not have this licence but then again I only work in the environment I mentioned above, people working as a one man band doing odd jobs for instance would not bother but will regret it if an incident occurs.

If you burn off lead paint it is very very toxic and if you or anyone is affected by the fumes and require hospital treatment then you as the tradesman will be prosecuted for negligence and for not having a licence to work with lead paint, we are told about these types of incidents at every licence renewal.

Go down to your local council offices and they should be able to give you the relevant documents to register.

 

[philphilop]

Yikes!  I should have bought a different house. Would it make more sense to just sand down the rough areas and paint?

There is very little point in removing good, existing paint, to paint it again, just scratch the good paint and go over it.

 

[shaun.mcc]

Yikes!  I should have bought a different house. Would it make more sense to just sand down the rough areas and paint?

Don't fret yet.

Perhaps we are going too far. Is their lead in the paint (test several areas to be sure)- as not knowing the property history...don't know if it was dealt with (doubt it). Is the paint flaking?...if not, their are encapsulating paints. Are there kids in the home...I ask again, as any lower surface like window sills, casing, is where there is a "chewing" concern - this where you should be extra vigalent. Other options are: to have doors chemically dipped, or even replace trim. I'm sure all not favorite options to keep the history of the house. My standards would want a nice smooth finish...unless I'm playing up on the 150 year old house theme...then perhaps you can accept a paint job that is onto a not so smooth surface that was scrapped and lightly sanded.

 

[AlexThePalex]

If you burn off lead paint it is very very toxic and if you or anyone is affected by the fumes and require hospital treatment then you as the tradesman will be prosecuted for negligence and for not having a licence to work with lead paint, we are told about these types of incidents at every licence renewal.

Go down to your local council offices and they should be able to give you the relevant documents to register.

Thanks for your explanation. So I understand it is only a paper you need to apply for and you don't have to do some kind of course/education? We had an American member here who got his lead abatement papers a few years back and he talked a lot about it here, and he had to do a bunch of courses to get them.

Burning paint is of course very toxic, with or without lead in it. When I say burn it, I assume people are smart enough to know for themselves they need to wear proper protection. Burning paint off is not something I like to do, in fact it's been a couple of years since I last done it, but in some cases it's the fastest and most accessible way to work.

The problem with paint removal is there is no good way to do it unless you suit up in total hazmat gear. Sanding, burning and chemical stripping are all very dirty methods.

 

[Rob Z]

Hello again,

Like Shaun said, no need to panic or change your mind about the house you now own. Just approach the project with proper planning and know what is important and what is less of an issue.

Testing by a certified lead testing firm is a great (and relatively low cost) way to learn what needs to be dealt with and what can be left alone or done with less standard of care than what is specified by RRP.

I am no longer doing work on houses that are old enough to qualify for RRP (built prior to 1978). But when I did, the most cost-effective method was to pay for a whole-house survey by a qualified testing firm.  I think the most a report ever cost ( and I used to get all the documents along with the homeowner, their realtor and anyone else who was involved) was a bit over $400.  The testing firms have a protocol that they follow for how many places to test throughout the house; a protocol that was sufficient enough to conclude that a "no lead present" conclusion was valid, or any combination of "lead present" and "no lead present" that they might  find. In other words, they aren't testing every square foot of the house, but they are taking enough samples that they can be confident in what they provide as a scientific evaluation of what is and isn't, in the house.

It might be the best money you spend, because it might be the case that certain areas of the house, or certain elements of the house, are completely free of lead.  That makes your life easier as you do your own work.  And if you hire someone to do work for you, they can do their work in the less-expensive non-RRP way, as long as they have that qualified report to document that their scope of work is free of lead.

Yikes!  I should have bought a different house. Would it make more sense to just sand down the rough areas and paint?

 

[philphilop]

If you burn off lead paint it is very very toxic and if you or anyone is affected by the fumes and require hospital treatment then you as the tradesman will be prosecuted for negligence and for not having a licence to work with lead paint, we are told about these types of incidents at every licence renewal.

Go down to your local council offices and they should be able to give you the relevant documents to register.

Thanks for your explanation. So I understand it is only a paper you need to apply for and you don't have to do some kind of course/education? We had an American member here who got his lead abatement papers a few years back and he talked a lot about it here, and he had to do a bunch of courses to get them.

Burning paint is of course very toxic, with or without lead in it. When I say burn it, I assume people are smart enough to know for themselves they need to wear proper protection. Burning paint off is not something I like to do, in fact it's been a couple of years since I last done it, but in some cases it's the fastest and most accessible way to work.

The problem with paint removal is there is no good way to do it unless you suit up in total hazmat gear. Sanding, burning and chemical stripping are all very dirty methods.

Far from just a paper, you need to register and then do a course once your registration paper has been passed.
The course i took was a 3 week practical followed by exams between 3 to 6 months afterwards, i did the coatings. course, infestations, and fungus and as i already had my I.O.B from england didnt need to take the materials course.
The painting contractors that work within our team NEVER burn lead base paint, doing so would loose them their licence so my original comment was to warn the original writer of the danger and because you had, obviously because you were unaware, advised him to burn off lead paint which is very dangerous.

 

[Motown]

I just wanted to add my two cents. To echo what the other guys have said you definitely would not want to use an open flame or even a heat gun bought at the box stores. That said, lead paint becomes toxic when heated above 875 degrees. I had to remove a significant amount of lead paint and I went with the SpeedHeater: http://www.speedheater.us/lessworkecofriendly/17

This heat removal system will not heat paint above 400 degrees and as a result is safer.

The EPA Lead Paint guidelines are available for download, PDF, and are really helpful with tips on testing for lead, containing chips of paint, etc.  I hope this helps.

 

[Motown]

As a side note, I am not affiliated with the company (I think they are based in Sweden) but the tool got me started. I used paint remover for hard to reach areas and then Festool sanders to prep for staining. Oh, Bahco scrapers are awesome and a must in my mind.

 

[Birdhunter]

Did the prior owner of the house disclose the presence of lead paint? The disclosure statements I've seen all cover the presence of lead paint. If the prior owner did not disclose the presence of lead paint, you may have a case for having him cover the cost of removal.

In any case, there is no way I'd take on removing lead paint or asbestos myself. It's not just the personal health issues, but also the future sale of the house. You know the house has lead paint and you will have to disclose that information when you sell. If you have certified professional remediation done, your resale becomes much simpler. If you do it yourself, you may have a very hard time convincing a buyer the house is safe.

 

[shaun.mcc]

Birdhunter more succinctly made the point to get some outside help...that was why I suggest you try to find a remediation specialist that would be willing to sign of on your work so you have documentation because if you go to sell you will need to disclose this on a HUD form.

And if it wasn't (like Birdhunter said), you have a case for something...unless you waived everything as is.

 

[dunacn]

Purchased as is. 24 hours ago I was so excited to use  my rotex! I'm glad I posted the question. Thanks for the replies.