Lead, Wet Sanding and Rotex

[Sandpile]

There are a number of threads on this board directed to using the Rotex for sanding lead containing coatings.  I read them all. 

After getting my first round of federal and state training, and setting up my second, I am trying to understand one critical point:

In my training, we were given very clear guidance on sanding.  We either need to do it wet or be prepared for the whole range of federal and state required testing.  That includes both environmental and exposure testing for workers.  The amount of money involved is huge.  Hence, every instructor, whether state federal or private consulting, agreed that all sanding needs to be done wet.

Does the Rotex work in wet sanding?  If not, are licensed remediation contractors on this board actually using the Rotex for lead abatement dry?  How are your local inspectors dealing with dry sanding?  Has anyone here done the training for the April 2010 regulation changes?  If so, how did your instructors handle the question of dry sanding?

Thank you for considering this important topic.

 

[Brice Burrell]

Sandpile, I'm only familiar with one member that is a certified abatement contractor, Charimon. He only just recently went through the training so I don't recall him discussing him methods he uses. In fact, I don't know if he's done any abatement yet. I expect you may find little in the way for first hands experience from the members here.

I'm a residential remodeling contractor, and I'm sitting tight to see how the new regulations play out before I act on training or new tools and methods. 

 

[AlexThePalex]

Does the Rotex work in wet sanding? 

Most certainly not.

 

[hasslefactor]

Does the Rotex work in wet sanding? 

Most certainly not.

I can't speak to the issue of lead abatement, including whether or not wet sanding (with or without a Rotex) is an appropriate method of abatement.

However, I CAN say that the Rotex absolutely DOES work for wet sanding in general - in fact, it performs magnificently. Earlier this year, I used my RO150 (with the Platin 2 abrasives, which are intended for either wet or dry applications) to wet sand the fiberglass hull of our sailboat prior to compounding and polishing. The work was almost effortless and the results were stunning.

 

[Peter Hamilton-Scott]

There are a number of threads on this board directed to using the Rotex for sanding lead containing coatings.

Just curious chaps, but how do you know if the paint does contain lead or not? Is it down to the relative age of the building or do you play safe and assume it could contain it?

 

[AlexThePalex]

Does the Rotex work in wet sanding? 

Most certainly not.

I can't speak to the issue of lead abatement, including whether or not wet sanding (with or without a Rotex) is an appropriate method of abatement.

However, I CAN say that the Rotex absolutely DOES work for wet sanding in general - in fact, it performs magnificently. Earlier this year, I used my RO150 (with the Platin 2 abrasives, which are intended for either wet or dry applications) to wet sand the fiberglass hull of our sailboat prior to compounding and polishing. The work was almost effortless and the results were stunning.

It doesn't matter if it works on a single job or not. What matters is that these machines are not designed and rated to work with water. They are not waterproof for instance. Second, power tools that are designed to work with water have all kinds of safety measures incorporated. I can't speak for America, but here in Europe it is strictly forbidden to use standard 220v machines with water. There is a high risk of electrocution.

 

[Holzhacker]

I have many tools that get used 'wet' at various times. I'm sure they weren't designed or intended for such use. I have a heavy extension cord set up with an outdoor box and a 20 AMP GFCI receptacle. That GFCI has popped many times over the years, I'm still here. When you work with tools for a living, improvising is part of the skill set.

 

[hasslefactor]

I have many tools that get used 'wet' at various times. I'm sure they weren't designed or intended for such use. I have a heavy extension cord set up with an outdoor box and a 20 AMP GFCI receptacle. That GFCI has popped many times over the years, I'm still here. When you work with tools for a living, improvising is part of the skill set.

Exactly. Heavy gauge outdoor extension cord. 20 amp GFCI receptacle installed in a dry location. Always inspect the cord to ensure it's in good condition, and test the receptacle to verify that it's working properly. Wear rubber soled soles. Protect cords from damage, and always unplug them when you're not using them. Take special care to keep the plugs dry - off the ground and protected from accidental overspray. When I'm working on the boat, for example, the Rotex's power plug and the female plug of the extension cord are separately secured to my portable scaffold. I also like to secure the male end of the extension cord to something off the ground near the receptacle so I can temporarily unplug it and (assuming it's still there when I come back) be fairly certain when I plug it in again that nobody accidentally dragged it through a puddle in the meantime.

Keeping the Rotex dry during wet sanding is not difficult. The idea is to wet the surface and the abrasive, not the sander. Very little water is required for the actual sanding - a few spritzes from a spray bottle are enough to keep the work lubricated and free of dust. Of course, you may be washing off the sanding residue with LOTS of water every five minutes or so, but you don't hold the sander while you do that - you stow it someplace convenient where it won't get wet. (When I'm working on the boat... in case anyone is wondering..., the deck is about a foot higher than my head, so it's easy for me to reach up and stow the Rotex just over the gunwhale.) And before picking the sander up again, you dry your hands.

Water doesn't get in the Rotex through the sanding pad when working without dust extraction and using an abrasive without holes. Or, at least, it didn't for me. I used the supersoft sanding pad with the foam-backed Platin 2 abrasives. My abrasives were always quite wet (I was rinsing them frequently to remove sanding residue), which made the H&L side of the sanding pad damp. However, even with the holes in the supersoft pad, the other side - and, more importantly, the interior of the Rotex - stayed dry.

To sum up, if you're using the proper equipment (correctly) and are plugged into a working GFCI outlet, I would think there's probably more risk of serious injury from tripping over your extension cord or falling off your scaffold than from electrocution. But don't take my word for it, because... I could be wrong! And given the potential serious consequences, I would prefer to change my mind rather than take the chance of PROVING I was mistaken. So I'm going to look into it some more before it's time to polish the boat again next spring.  [smile]

P.S. to Sandpile: 
Unfortunately, all I understand about lead abatement is that I'm really glad I don't have to do it - or be responsible for complying with all the regs. (And since the only technical standard I need to consider is whether or not the Skipper will think the boat is shiny enough to impress all the other skippers, my example isn't much help to you. Sorry...). That being said, it WOULD surprise me if contractors were abating lead paint by dry sanding - that seems very risky in terms of liability as well as health and safety. In any event, since I assume most of the work is on vertical surfaces, I wonder whether you have considered a pneumatic sander? No doubt it's a pain to transport a compressor, but I'll bet your neck, shoulders, arms, and everything else might thank you for it.

P.P.S. to Alex:
My understanding is that Europe is about 40 years behind the U.S. when it comes to GFCI requirements - that may explain the difference. In the U.S., the National Electrical Code has required GFCI for receptacles located outdoors since 1975. The NEC also requires GFCI outlets in bathrooms; garages; kitchens; crawl spaces and unfinished basements; near laundry, utility, and wet bar sinks; and at certain locations such as near swimming pools. GFCI substantially reduces the danger of electrocution - you can read more about it here.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

The idea is to wet the surface and the abrasive, not the sander.

Laurie asked me to drop by and read this thread and let her know if she was all wet or not.  [eek] [tongue] What she described is perfectly fine, and I am actually rather impressed with this sudden knowledge put forth in the posting.

The tools are double insulated, which prevents electrical components from coming into contact with the operator. The most important factor, however, is the GFCI protection. This will instantly cut power to the tool if more than 5 mA of electrical current travels anywhere other than the completed circuit from which it was derived.

As Laurie stated above, the intent is to wet the surface, not the tool.

 

[Michael Kellough]

I once watched a guy drilling holes in posts on the shore of a lake to build a dock. Actually he was in the water and this was before there were cordless drills but (critically) after the introduction of GFCIs.

He had a long extension cord (grounded) running to the "beach" and another extension cord with a GFCI built into the end. From there another extension cord went out a bit farther and his Milwaukee Hole-Hawg was plugged into that. The connection of the drill and the last extension cord was wrapped in electrical tape as it hung in the water.

He drilled away and occasionally a boat would pass by and the wake/chop would splash him and the drill and sometimes it would trip the GFCI. When that happened he'd wade back to shore (with the drill) and reset the GFCI and then wade back out to the post and resume drilling.

 

[jakiiski]

P.P.S. to Alex:
My understanding is that Europe is about 40 years behind the U.S. when it comes to GFCI requirements - that may explain the difference. In the U.S., the National Electrical Code has required GFCI for receptacles located outdoors since 1975. The NEC also requires GFCI outlets in bathrooms; garages; kitchens; crawl spaces and unfinished basements; near laundry, utility, and wet bar sinks; and at certain locations such as near swimming pools. GFCI substantially reduces the danger of electrocution - you can read more about it here.

That's quite a generalisation as Europe is not a single country but rather a continent with dozens of countries - all with their own legislation and practices in this area. In all of the Nordic countries the recepticles outside the house have been GFCI protected since the 90s at least and nowadays it is a common practice (if not even required by the law) to have all the recepticles GFCI protected. It does not cost that much (typically one GFCI circuit switch costs around 30 euros) and they do offer very good additional protection for that money.

 

[jvsteenb]

My understanding is that Europe is about 40 years behind the U.S. when it comes to GFCI requirements - that may explain the difference.

I was trained as an electrical engineer in the Netherlands about 30 years ago. GFCI devices were quite common then, every new building was regulatorily equipped with them. A couple of years before that, the regulations for newly built residential buildings were changed to prescribe 30 mA CFGI devices in favor of 100 mA devices. That was regarding all of the electrical connections in or around said building.
Somehow I doubt that comparable regulations were in effect in the US 70 years ago.....

With regards to sewing a fabricator/installer/seller/advisor of said devices should any of them fail, you may well be right that we're about 40 or even more years behind - and regarding that: frankly I hope we never catch up.

Regards,

Job

 

[Michael Kellough]

My understanding is that Europe is about 40 years behind the U.S. when it comes to GFCI requirements - that may explain the difference.

I was trained as an electrical engineer in the Netherlands about 30 years ago. GFCI devices were quite common then, every new building was regulatorily equipped with them. A couple of years before that, the regulations for newly built residential buildings were changed to prescribe 30 mA CFGI devices in favor of 100 mA devices. That was regarding all of the electrical connections in or around said building.
Somehow I doubt that comparable regulations were in effect in the US 70 years ago.....

With regards to sewing a fabricator/installer/seller/advisor of said devices should any of them fail, you may well be right that we're about 40 or even more years behind - and regarding that: frankly I hope we never catch up.

Regards,

Job

Job, I had to read this last paragraph three times to realize you were thinking of lawyers rather than seamstresses.  ;D  I guess the juxtaposition of "fabricators" threw me.

Over here the the lawyers launch an attack by suing.

 

[hasslefactor]

Job/jakiinski:

Thank you both for your replies. I'm VERY happy to hear that my understanding of GFCI outside the U.S. was incorrect.

Incidentally, I have lived in Germany and Austria, and am well aware that there are many countries in the continent of Europe (believe it or not, I even know that some countries are in more than one continent at the same time). However, since I was replying directly to ALEX in that part of my post, I chose to use the same generalization that he did. I am sorry if that offended you or anyone else. Please accept my apologies.

But more importantly (and back on topic)...

I'd like to hear what you think about wet sanding with a Rotex.

Rick:

Thanks for weighing in. I'll look forward to wet sanding Black Magic's deck with my Rotex next April. Oh wait... you're not trying to get rid of me, are you???  [eek]

 

[jvsteenb]

Job, I had to read this last paragraph three times to realize you were thinking of lawyers rather than seamstresses.    I guess the juxtaposition of "fabricators" threw me.
Over here the the lawyers launch an attack by suing.

Oops.... [embarassed] Non-native speaker here - it happens....   To make it even worse I have to admit I actually knew this - it's just a bit less obvious when re-reading.
The good news is: hang around and I'll probably make you chuckle again  [cool]

@Laurie:

Regarding wet sanding with a Rotex: I've done it, and would do it again without worries. As you so elegantly stated: you wet the surface and the abrasive, not the machine.  Indeed, using abrasives without holes, and without (!!!!) dust collection. Actually I even think it could be rather safe WITH dc, but hate the idea of having to clean up everything afterwards.

OTOH, When wet sanding/polishing synthetic car finishes, especially the lighter colours or when wet-sanding filler-primers, I use LOTS of water, and for this I hook up my pneumatic ROS.

That's because I have experienced that it's close to impossible to get ALL the sanding residu out of the grooves even if it has had only a minute to dry. That leaves microscopic "lumps" of sanding dust "glued" to the surface, and especially in the lighter colours ( or worse, using filler-primers ) these contain lots of fillers ( duh.... ) that usually are rather hygroscopic, while the most paintlayers are a tad porous and don't adhere very well to these "lumps". I've had some beautiful spray-finishes develop minute blisters, for not taking that into account - some a year or more after the original paintjob. Well, you live you learn. So for this type of work I learned to either sand dry, or REALLY wet.
Using epoxy- or polyurethane-based coatings I never experienced this behaviour, probably because these coatings "absorb" the stray dust.

BTW: No offense taken, the tone of my reply reflected my usual cynical self...... [unsure]

Regards,

Job

 

[Rick Christopherson]

A couple of years before that, the regulations for newly built residential buildings were changed to prescribe 30 mA CFGI devices in favor of 100 mA devices. That was regarding all of the electrical connections in or around said building.
Somehow I doubt that comparable regulations were in effect in the US 70 years ago.....

Considering the U.S. GFI's are 5 mA trip, and it takes only 60 mA across the heart to kill, I would say that Laurie's original statement was a reasonable one to make, especially for a woodworking forum. It would probably even pass on Mike Holt's forum.

 

[Sandpile]

Thank you all for the discussion.  I learned a lot about how members think about the tools and tool operations.  After reading the responses, I see an area in which I should have been more clear.

I am interested in the Rotex because I believe that it has an innovative air return system.  Conventional, dirt cheap, air tools exhaust spent air at the tool.  Accordingly, they make a huge mess.  Application of these tools on a job site (rather than in a dust controlled shop) has been a problem.  Given Festool's history of providing the finest quality HEPA filtered return air on their electric tools, I was impressed to see them produce a light, simple, high quality air tool which manages return air.  That could seal their dominance in job site remediation tools.  I have seen Festools used extensively in the restoration community in Amsterdam.  I am looking forward to their entry into the US restoration community (we are many years behind the EU in this field).

All that said, my worry was with the HEPA filter.  I am getting a much better handle on the problem after reading these responses.  The biggest worry now is that I could use them on a job successfully, only to be smacked by my OSHA inspector for using a tool not UL listed for wet environments.  You can't win with these guys sometimes.

So now - my next problem may be to find a HEPA vac that is UL listed for wet conditions.  Endless adaptation looks like the key to the lead Field.  Festool should look hard at this market.  They could do it right.

 

[jvsteenb]

Considering the U.S. GFI's are 5 mA trip, and it takes only 60 mA across the heart to kill, I would say that Laurie's original statement was a reasonable one to make

I mildly disagree [wink] Now there's a surprise...  [big grin]

In my country, GFCI devices were mandatory in new installations, way before my formal training as an electrical engineer in '78 .  When it's stated that GFCI's were considered mandatory for certain types of installation from '75 in the US NEC, I think that's about the time that the use of 30mA devices vs 100mA devices became regulation in residential buildings in my country.
I'd say that's about on par.  It's just the implementation that differs: There's no such thing as a GFCI device embedded in a powercord or in a receptable over here, for our GFCI's are centrally installed. Hence the difference in sensitivity: one or maybe two GFCI's protect the complete electrical installation, including the complete wiring. When 20 devices are connected and working, the complete return current "loss" must be below this 30 mA treshold. It's just a different design rationale.

Comparing these two implementations, I don't think that the statement that

Europe is about 40 years behind the U.S. when it comes to GFCI requirements

is correct, to put it mildly. Hence my reaction.

Regards,

Job

 

[score0matic]

Sandpile

As i understand your question you want to know if the Rotex woudl be considered approved for lead work.

The answer is yes and no.  are you asking in reference to an Abatement  or a RRP.  If it is for an abatement than you most likely want to do an air sample test rather than wear the "purple" mask while preforming the task.  if you wear the mask make sure you have a "fit test" and a Respirator physical in your possession.  For abattement you would want to run an air sample just to document that sanding with the rotex is below the "action level"  (not the PEL)  and keep the documentation.  The Hud  regs allow "hepa sanding" as a permissible method  and the rotex meets the description  Make sure  that your hepa vac meets criteria. 

For RRP This is a personal opinion but i would say that as both wet sanding /scraping and HEPA sanding are listed as Permissible practices you shouldn't have an issue using the rotex as is.  OSHA  prefers engineered solutions to Personal Protection Equipment so the hepa sander is preferred to PPE.

Craig

 

[richard.selwyn]

Would Festool's airpowered sanders work in the wet?  Are they NAINA.  I looked at them at Axminster in the UK recently and was sorely tempted.

I have just bought a house that is full of lead paint and asbestos.  Before I bought it the seller had to pay for a report.  The report said, amongst other things, that there was lead in the paint everywhere, asbestos sheeting on the ceiling in several rooms and that the electricity was too dangerous to use.  On the other hand, the owner was not required to do anything about it and I went ahead and bought it.  So what was the point of the report?

I am now trying to find out how to get rid of the asbestos.  I am not concerned about removing it, but when I have, I am unclear as how to dispose of it.  The lead paint I will probably remove, again not quite sure how.  If I wear a suitable mask I can't imagine that it can be that much more noxious than all the water that passes through lead pipes in a large number of buildings in Paris  - which nobody seems to want to do anything about - I guess that's why we all drink wine here!

Richard