Little Proteus Power feeder

[alladd]

I posted about this when my power feeder was first developed, wondering about the suitability of Festool drills as the best power source for my drill-powered power feeder. My power feeder is now in several hundred shops around the US and Canada, with a few further afield, and the plan I offer has been downloaded by woodworkers from all around the world. It's proven an effective solution for many problems. I think its best use is a feeder on small band saws for resawing, but it's great for router tables and light duty table saw work. On a table saw, used in conjunction with a single Jessem Clear Cut guides in the same track it allows continuous feeding of stock without the need for a push stick.

I realize that a  mostly plywood ugly-ducking of a power feeder is not the sort of thing Festool users are going to be attracted to, but if you appreciate engineering geared towards functionality and can disregard the aesthetics I'm sure many of you would find a Little Proteus power feeder useful for many tasks.https://powerfeeder.alladd.com/powerfeederindex.htmlView attachment 1

 

[ChuckM]

Looks like a very useful machine for repetitive jobs.

If a manufacturing partner could be found in Taiwan or China, the units could be mass produced (in aluminum?) and sold at a price point that many hobby woodworkers might find it hard to resist. (But then the American-made appeal would be lost.) To attract the Festool base, some form of effective dust collection should be incorporated in the design.

Edit: The imported version could even include a motor that drives the feeding, instead of using a cordless drill. I am always amazed by how much the Asian manufacturers can deliver given a budget that seems to be undo-able to their counterparts in the west. (Of course, our cost bases are different due to wages, legal and environmental requirements, etc., but that's another topic.)

 

[smorgasbord]

Just in case people haven't seen it, Infinity Tools has a power feed for $450:https://www.infinitytools.com/mini-power-feeder
[attachimg=1]

 

[ChuckM]

They released some YouTube videos on it just one month ago. Watching them now.

 

[Michael Kellough]

The craftsman made rig mounts on T-track. The Infinity rig requires a $300 magnetic mounting base.

I’d like to know if the OP has considered a small gear motor instead of…a bunch of stuff.

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

The craftsman made rig mounts on T-track. The Infinity rig requires a $300 magnetic mounting base.

I’d like to know if the OP has considered a small gear motor instead of…a bunch of stuff.

I'd hardly say the Infinity (or any other feeder) requires a magnetic base. There's a $70 plate option, or you can just drill/tap the machine top and bolt it down.....

 

[alladd]

Thanks for this feedback.

The Infinity feeder is the same "Baby Feeder" made by "Comatic" in China or Taiwan for many years, sold by Grizzly, Delta, Harbor Freight and others over the years. It's a much loved and much hated tool. It's such a pain to mount that now there's a new $300 magnetic mount for the $400 feeder. Once mounted and adjusted it works well for light duty tasks, like mine. The Baby Feeder is awkward to adjust even once mounted, as it relies on a canted arm and  universal joint , so raising and lowering it once it's in position is  a several step process, as opposed to turning a single crank, the way it is on all other power feeders, including the Little Proteus.

Three in-line wheels give the Baby Feeder an advantage over mine for some tasks. That disadvantage can be alleviated by mounting both  feeder  wheels behind the cutter or blade, and using feather boards or other hold downs in front of the blade.  Then you feed manually until the work has passed beyond the blade and the feeder takes over.  My third wheel on the same shaft at the front gives it a big advantage for band saw use, as you have wheels covering a 6-1/2"  height span pushing the work against the fence.  For band saw use, mine compares well to the Comatic $900 band saw feeder that works only on band saws, and needs a fairly large band saw table to mount without an extension. The Comatic only supports 3-3/8" height. Mine is about 15 pounds with a drill attached --the Comatic Baby Feeder is like 27 pounds, and their lightweight band saw feeder is 38 pounds. So mine can go on small band saws, lightweight router tables (where the magnetic base won't help you with your Comatic), and mine can go on job site table saws, allowing a single worker with no infeed or outfeed support to rip a 12' board.

Much of the appeal of my unit is the ease of mounting. I have a little video where I mount it on the table saw and feed a board, move it to the router table and feed a board, and then move it to the  band saw and feed a board, all in about 2 minutes.

ChuckS, I have thought a lot about trying to get a product based on this mass produced, but  that marketing and networking is not  at all my area of expertise. I'm a life long craft woodworker (www.alladd.com) and I built the Little Proteus for my own needs, and when I saw how well it worked I decided to try this venture.  I know the drill is a real turn-off, but it's a lot of the product's excellence and value. A small gear motor would need an inverter or advanced engineering, and drills are an unbelievable value because of the boggling scale at which they're produced and the years of expert engineering that has gone into their current state of refinement. The high torque at low speed of todays brushless motor drills is the secret behind the Little Proteus working so well on the band saw.

People pay $300 for Jessems table saw hold downs. But my feeder at $360 is a hard sell. It's functionality compared to Jessems hold downs isn't even close. But the aesthetics  and "fit and finish" aren't close either. So I resort to posts like this to try to  get the word out, and try to overcome people's understandable skepticism. For what it's worth, Fine Woodworking Magazine gave it a thumbs-up:
https://www.finewoodworking.com/2020/12/29/tool-review-little-proteus-power-feeder-from-al-ladd

 

[mrFinpgh]

Al,

Thanks for sharing this. I was eyeballing the little proteus last year for a while.  Being in a space constrained setting, there's a lot to like. The light weight and small size fit in well to a situation where everything needs to be portable (as in carried by one person without a hoist).

I'm curious about the feed rate and how it would do on a 10" bandsaw with a 1/2 hp motor.  It would be great to have that kind of consistency for resawing/ripping but I'm guessing that a machine like mine might not be able to keep up with it.  Do you have any experience with that setup?

Thanks,
Adam

 

[smorgasbord]

For tablesaw/router table use, the fence-mounted idea is really great, as is your various kit configurations.

But, no ranking of any Festool drill as the power source?  [wink]

 

[ChuckM]

Thanks for this feedback.

I can understand how uneasy it's to connect to the right party outside North America. But I thought your creative idea should deserve its share of market success (if it was packaged as a finished product in metal).

Your version of feeder is different from all others that have been mentioned in the thread in that yours isn't a one-trick pony, and that's a bonus/selling point for most hobbyists. For production shops, they have budgets for a dedicated turn-key system for each machinery.

"People pay $300 for Jessems table saw hold downs. But my feeder at $360 is a hard sell."

Can yours handle plywood sheet goods? The JessEm's is a great accessory for long, wide planks and large sheet goods.

 

[squall_line]

For tablesaw/router table use, the fence-mounted idea is really great, as is your various kit configurations.

But, no ranking of any Festool drill as the power source?  [wink]

If you read previous posts from 2021, feedback was solicited from Festool drill owners, but little was received in terms of usage information.

I'm happy to see something like this that has come more or less full circle from where it started.

 

[alladd]

Great to see how active this board is, with knowledgeable and intelligent voices.

I am embarrassed by not having data on Festool drills. I did get this comment from a user on another forum:"My Festool T15 will run at 3rpm with enough power that I can't stop the chuck with my hand. It will run at 5rpm smoothly and with enough power I can't stop a 3.25" hole saw with my hand." So it sounds like his T15 would blow any other drill I tested out of the water. But I've made a specialty for the last 40 years of working  among  the least profitable woodcrafts possible, and so haven't been willing to spend the money on acquiring  Festtool drills to test. I have spent a small fortune buying and testing many others, (and I try to resell most of them!). The drills do differ, and some won't be good for resawing thick wood on a small band saw.

The LP works great on plywood, just as the Jessems do, and the  best  configuration is in conjunction with the Jessem guides (or Board Buddies), with the LP mounted behind the blade and a another  (maybe 2 if your saw and track can hold it all) in front of the blade. This will work for long and wide boards too. It can eliminate the problem of completing a cut with the Jessems --no push stick required. I'm working on a video with a demo of that--I'll post a link here when it's ready.

For small band saws, the issues are discussed on this page:https://forum.shopsmith.com/viewtopic.php?t=24889&start=40
In short, yes it can work--but don't expect miracles.

This is from my user manual:
It’s best to try some cuts by hand to get a
feel for the best feed speed if you’re not totally sure of that. A power feeder will not allow you
to resaw on a saw that can't resaw well by hand. This requires a sharp blade, a well-tuned saw,
a stout fence as high or nearly as high as the stock, set parallel to the preferred path of actual
blade in place, and sufficient motor power to cut through the stock. If you have all these, a
power feeder can make sure the stock is fed at a steady and appropriate pace and held securely against the fence.
It can do that with superhuman strength and endurance, --making resawing a relaxing,
faster and stress-free operation. But it won’t compensate for an inadequate resawing set up. So
learn to resaw by hand before trying it with your power feeder.

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.

The LP works great on plywood, just as the Jessems do, Snip.

If your video can show that, e.g. processing a 4x4 or 4x6, if not a 4x8, its value to some woodworkers will become more obvious.

I know a couple of table saw users who got their track saws because they found it challenging to feed a 4x8 on their cabinet saws. (Norm Abram made it look easy, but many hobby viewers didn't learn how to do it or practice enough.) The JessEM is a great help in handling 4x8 sheets because it keeps the 4x8 tight to the fence as one feeds the stock. It needs some practice with a 3/4" sheet, but 1/2" or under should be easy peasy for any experienced table saw owners armed with the JessEm.

(I once had a TS75 and track, bought second hand in a sweet deal that I couldn't walk away from, and used it once. During the pandemic, I sold it to a serious buyer, a furniture maker specialized in slabs, who examined it almost inside and out and made a few test cuts on the slab he brought along with him before accepting it!)

 

[smorgasbord]

... haven't been willing to spend the money on acquiring  Festtool drills to test. I have spent a small fortune buying and testing many others, (and I try to resell most of them!). The drills do differ, and some won't be good for resawing thick wood on a small band saw.

Festool has a 30 day money back guarantee, so you could do your testing during that time, and maybe decide to swap out whatever your current favorite is!

I know a couple of table saw users who got their track saws because they found it challenging to feed a 4x8 on their cabinet saws. (Norm Abram made it look easy, but many hobby viewers didn't learn how to do it or practice enough.)

Norm had the equivalent of a 4 car garage, and for processing sheets on a tablesaw, space is key - of course infeed and outfeed tables/supports.

Here's him doing a cut:=shared&t=865

His assembly table doubles an input feed table, and he has an attached outfeed table that supports an 8' panel after completing the cut.

[attachimg=1]

Also note no blade guard.

It was fun watching Norm in the first few/several seasons to see how he learned what many woodworkers already knew. But, gotta give him props for his approachable style.

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.
His assembly table doubles an input feed table, and he has an attached outfeed table that supports an 8' panel after completing the cut.

[attachimg=1]

Also note no blade guard.

It was fun watching Norm in the first few/several seasons to see how he learned what many woodworkers already knew. But, gotta give him props for his approachable style.

Some set up their workbenches the same way. Let me see if I could find an old photo of a local fellow who did just that. I use the roller stand.

No blade guard. Despite his famous glasses wearing advice, he was seen a couple times and again feeding moulding stock on a router table with his bare hands and no push stick. Do what I say, not what I..... [big grin]

I like how he solved some of the complex angle cuts in a couple projects without resorting to mathematical formulas or table. I was even able to apply one of his methods to one of my projects, though I did verify it beforehand with math!

Update: Found this photo, but aren't sure if that was the mobile workbench of the fellow I had in time, but I'm sure that was his custom furniture shop. He did a lot of custom builds out of sheet goods as well as solid wood --working by himself very busy year round. And no, he is not like any of the Festool "influencers" bringing everything Festool to a customer's home. His successful business is not based on any one particular brand or tool.

[attachimg=1]

Final update: Just heard back from the shop owner: "I don’t have a track saw. My bench is level with my saw just for breaking down sheet goods. My daughter is my #1 helper whenever I use sheets or load lumber. I’m lucky to have her at home." Definitely an old school furnituremaker who doesn't get easily swayed by "influencers!" (He does have a DF500 and a Pro 5.)

 

[Michael Kellough]

Great to see how active this board is, with knowledgeable and intelligent voices.

I am embarrassed by not having data on Festool drills. I did get this comment from a user on another forum:"My Festool T15 will run at 3rpm with enough power that I can't stop the chuck with my hand. It will run at 5rpm smoothly and with enough power I can't stop a 3.25" hole saw with my hand." So it sounds like his T15 would blow any other drill I tested out of the water. But I've made a specialty for the last 40 years of working  among  the least profitable woodcrafts possible, and so haven't been willing to spend the money on acquiring  Festtool drills to test. I have spent a small fortune buying and testing many others, (and I try to resell most of them!). The drills do differ, and some won't be good for resawing thick wood on a small band saw.

The LP works great on plywood, just as the Jessems do, and the  best  configuration is in conjunction with the Jessem guides (or Board Buddies), with the LP mounted behind the blade and a another  (maybe 2 if your saw and track can hold it all) in front of the blade. This will work for long and wide boards too. It can eliminate the problem of completing a cut with the Jessems --no push stick required. I'm working on a video with a demo of that--I'll post a link here when it's ready.

For small band saws, the issues are discussed on this page:https://forum.shopsmith.com/viewtopic.php?t=24889&start=40
In short, yes it can work--but don't expect miracles.

This is from my user manual:
It’s best to try some cuts by hand to get a
feel for the best feed speed if you’re not totally sure of that. A power feeder will not allow you
to resaw on a saw that can't resaw well by hand. This requires a sharp blade, a well-tuned saw,
a stout fence as high or nearly as high as the stock, set parallel to the preferred path of actual
blade in place, and sufficient motor power to cut through the stock. If you have all these, a
power feeder can make sure the stock is fed at a steady and appropriate pace and held securely against the fence.
It can do that with superhuman strength and endurance, --making resawing a relaxing,
faster and stress-free operation. But it won’t compensate for an inadequate resawing set up. So
learn to resaw by hand before trying it with your power feeder.

I’m seriously considering buying some version the Little Proteus in large part because of Al’s thorough, honest, and concise writing. To me that is evidence of the kind of mind that is capable producing something really useful.

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.
Norm had the equivalent of a 4 car garage, and for processing sheets on a tablesaw, space is key - of course infeed and outfeed tables/supports.
Snip.

I can do a lot of things on my driveway, esp. thicknessplaning (because of noise and chips) (long driveway, two small SUVs can go on it front and back before reaching the garage door). Summer-wise, that is.

I once received a complaint for my hobby woodworking, but the complainant used a made-up reason, not noise, to lodge their complaint that I ran a woodworking business in a residential area without a business license! The city inspector came and left, not before complimenting about how well organized my shop was, compared to others she had visited (to approve their business license applications)! Moral: Well-organized shops must be hobby shops! [tongue] [big grin]

 

[cdconey]

my feeder at $360 is a hard sell.

Not to be harsh, but it just doesn't look like a product worth the $360 asking price, then you have to add a drill to the cost.  The plan cost is a little high as well compared to most other plans available online for other products.  I'm not stating that you are out of line for asking your price, you know what the cost of materials and labor is to produce, assemble, and finish it.  I've tried to bring products to market that I designed to solve problems/roadblocks for my shop, but the price I would have to sell it for was way over-priced for the product and not enough market demand/volume to outsource production to lower the cost. 

If I'm going to spend $400, I'd go with the one from Infinity or find one used on one of the internet market places.  It may be more out of pocket, but will have resale value when I'm done with it. 

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.  It may be more out of pocket, but will have resale value when I'm done with it.

That's a very valid point. I sold my (bought second hand) TS75 way above the price I paid for it (partly because of the pandemic and partly because Festool keeps raising its prices annually). (And I know I can sell my DF500 -- purchased more than a decade ago) with little or no loss...as long as I do that before any clones come to the market.)

I don't think I could recover much from a self-assembled wooden jig when I try to sell it, even if I included a drill.

It'd be a different story if the feeder was made of aluminum, which also gives a sense of reliability and longevity. Imagine a self-centering drilling jig made of plywood (which should be cheaper) and its sales potential. My concern with sophisticated self-assembled jigs is that what if they don't work after installing them on my machine? Or, they don't produce the kind of result that is seen in the demo videos? Sufficient user feedback would allay that fear.

The magnitude of difficulty of bringing a concept and shop-made product to the market is always large.

 

[alladd]

Thanks for these replies! ...fascinating to understand more about why most people have trouble getting themselves to buy my feeder. All understandable points.

$20 for a plan for my feeder might be high compared to other plans, but most plans sold on the internet represent pretty close to 0 actual new information, and pretty close to 0 research and engineering development. I actually suggest the plan as appropriate mostly for woodworkers outside North America, because of high shipping costs on the kits. If you buy the plan and then decide to buy a kit or completed feeder, I credit the plan price in full towards that.

The $144 kit can be built by an average woodworker, and good luck finding substitutes for the parts in the kit for less money than that--to say nothing of the hours of your time it will take you to look.

As has been covered, the only competitive product is the $400 Comatic baby feeder, which is such a drag to mount some find it worth it paying another $300 for a magnetic base. It won't feed at as low  speeds as one can get with a LP, and won't function well as a band saw feeder. So the price comparison is sort of bogus: the LP will do things no other tool will do, at any price.

As for the drill expense, what half serious woodworker doesn't own a brushless motor drill? If you don't, treat yourself to one. And then decide if you want to really get the most out of that drill by using it to power a power feeder!

Here's a quick video I shot this morning showing the Little Proteus cutting plywood.  It's not something I habitually do myself, but I have a sliding table for my Powermatic 66, and have been woodworking for 45 years.


Again, thanks for all this really helpful feedback, and especially to the few of you who said nice things about my feeder!