To affirm what [member=1674]Peter Halle[/member] and [member=1619]SRSemenza[/member] said, we (Festool) didn't ask them to lock any of the topics. Honestly, I'm always more hesitant to lock topics than the other moderators are, because I don't want the appearance that Festool is trying to silence your opinions. That said, when a topic feels like it's run its course or gets too far from the original subject, I respect the mods' decisions to put the conversation to rest.
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- Thread starter Peter Durand
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Regarding the topics about issues with certain tools that crept up in recent times (which are the reason for this post): unless Festool either confirms existing issues and their will to fix them (even if there should be a problem, we're talking about a german company so the CEO dosn't have to pick up the short sword to cut his guts out like some in Japan did when **** hit the fan) -or- state that the problems dosn't exist in reality (and accepting that this would backfire expensively should they be proven wrong in the future)... these topics won't go away until the reasons for them get addressed - what will go away (the longer the silence stays that deafening) are forum users, trust in the brand and thus prospective buyers.
So it could be a good idea for the moderators to deliver 'our users get (increasingly) restless over $topic' toward the powers that be. Because as I see it, over the time I'm here... they do.
From my experience moderating a forum:
Splitting off derails decisively and early so the healthy body of a topic can live seems to work well (combined with personal messages toward the ones responsible for the derail, detailing the reasoning why their posts had been put up for recycling - and at times handing temporary, or even eternal in lost cases, holidays to the ones who refuse to get that memo).
What I found is that Broken Window works, so my suggestion is to ask for proof when (yet) unsubstantiated claims pop up, should the user making them fail to deliver simply (but politely) treat him as a troll.
I (and I guess most others) have no problem with someone informing about something being wrong because lookhere - but no interest at all in FUD.
So it could be a good idea for the moderators to deliver 'our users get (increasingly) restless over $topic' toward the powers that be. Because as I see it, over the time I'm here... they do.
From my experience moderating a forum:
Splitting off derails decisively and early so the healthy body of a topic can live seems to work well (combined with personal messages toward the ones responsible for the derail, detailing the reasoning why their posts had been put up for recycling - and at times handing temporary, or even eternal in lost cases, holidays to the ones who refuse to get that memo).
What I found is that Broken Window works, so my suggestion is to ask for proof when (yet) unsubstantiated claims pop up, should the user making them fail to deliver simply (but politely) treat him as a troll.
I (and I guess most others) have no problem with someone informing about something being wrong because lookhere - but no interest at all in FUD.
Peter Durand
Member
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- Jul 5, 2008
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- 208
TylerC said:
Thank you for your reply.
Cheers,
Peter
I believe this forum is a great source of information pro and con but it seems lately it has been leaning towards a negative narrative. Personally I visit this site often during the day to see what interesting experiences the members have come up with.
I believe if you have an issue with a product from Festool it can be discussed without such a demeaning note. If you think of it at some point it is no longer an issue with your tool it becomes ugly and none productive
I believe the moderators on this site do a fair job. I know I wouldn’t want their job. They put a lot of time and energy into this site and we all benefit from their work. I have found them to be a fair group. If they believe it’s time to close a discussion then it might have run its course
I know I would be at a lose without this site. Maybe we need a specific area to vent that has to accessed individually and not in the general discussion area. (Just kidding).
I believe if you have an issue with a product from Festool it can be discussed without such a demeaning note. If you think of it at some point it is no longer an issue with your tool it becomes ugly and none productive
I believe the moderators on this site do a fair job. I know I wouldn’t want their job. They put a lot of time and energy into this site and we all benefit from their work. I have found them to be a fair group. If they believe it’s time to close a discussion then it might have run its course
I know I would be at a lose without this site. Maybe we need a specific area to vent that has to accessed individually and not in the general discussion area. (Just kidding).
OK "fanboy" was a poor choice but I was responding to this.
"If you do not like Festool and cannot respect the opinions of those of us who "like" the tools that we have then try another forum"
That seems to indicate if I don't have the same opinion I should try another forum. So this forum is only for people who like Festool unconditionally? That clearly is not not the case. I don't think I have shown any disrespect for anyone's opinion?
Gerry
"If you do not like Festool and cannot respect the opinions of those of us who "like" the tools that we have then try another forum"
That seems to indicate if I don't have the same opinion I should try another forum. So this forum is only for people who like Festool unconditionally? That clearly is not not the case. I don't think I have shown any disrespect for anyone's opinion?
Gerry
Oldwood said:
I can see how that statement could be a bit off putting to the general reader. I think , and I hope I am not speaking out of turn for Peter Parfitt, it is born out out of a bit of frustration with people that seem to show up with an agenda of only panning Festool and panning those who like and use Festool. As opposed to those with a legitimate criticism that is not laced with rancor or terms designed to incite and insult.
Seth
[member=10212]magellan[/member] I can assure you that Seth, myself, Festool USA, Festool, and a whole bunch of members here; some quiet now as Seth mentioned, want this forum to be more of a community that shares ideas, answers questions regarding tools and their usage, shows the result of using those tools, and offer general woodworking advice thru the participation of our members.
That hasn't changed since day one.
The core is intact but needs to b expanded on thru the participation of the members in concert with the original intent of the forum's goals.
Peter
That hasn't changed since day one.
The core is intact but needs to b expanded on thru the participation of the members in concert with the original intent of the forum's goals.
Peter
Sparktrician
Member
Peter Halle said:
Hear, hear!!! Enough of this incessant whining. Let's get back to woodworking.
Locked or unlocked. It is always a judgment call. All the moderators have done a fantastic job here in the Forum as far as I'm concerned. Please keep up the good work.
We shouldn't read too much into the coincidental locking of the threads. When we have time, we tend to attend to the loose ends at the same time; we do that with our work or in the shop, don't we? I look forward to sharing and benefiting from the wealth of knowledge and experience found among the members.
We shouldn't read too much into the coincidental locking of the threads. When we have time, we tend to attend to the loose ends at the same time; we do that with our work or in the shop, don't we? I look forward to sharing and benefiting from the wealth of knowledge and experience found among the members.
southrider
Member
Personally I find it insulting that the recon thread was locked due to a few guys going back and forth off topic. You should have just had a chat with them.
I needed the updates because of the poor way that information has been disseminated about the sale, the inconsistency of the emails being sent, etc. We never know if we are receiving info or not - this thread helped to clarify what we are or aren't getting. For instance today I have no idea how many tools were offered.
People are trying to buy your tools, having problems with that process, and you choose to shut down the only communication about that process?
Seems a little closed minded to me.
Enough said..............
I needed the updates because of the poor way that information has been disseminated about the sale, the inconsistency of the emails being sent, etc. We never know if we are receiving info or not - this thread helped to clarify what we are or aren't getting. For instance today I have no idea how many tools were offered.
People are trying to buy your tools, having problems with that process, and you choose to shut down the only communication about that process?
Seems a little closed minded to me.
Enough said..............
[member=42863]SouthRider[/member] You are mistaken. The Recon thread was not locked.
Seth
Seth
sancho57
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Im glad it was locked. Because it went from a productive thread to a whine-a-thon. Its like this;
there is a folder for problems with festools tool.
Its ok to discuss issues with various tools look at the the kapex thread it went on forever about issues folks were having with the kapex..
But when a thread converts from being productive beyond counter productive to whineing, its time to close the thread and life will go on.
If youre not happy wit the tools, they have a classified folder where you can sell them for a fair price.
there is a folder for problems with festools tool.
Its ok to discuss issues with various tools look at the the kapex thread it went on forever about issues folks were having with the kapex..
But when a thread converts from being productive beyond counter productive to whineing, its time to close the thread and life will go on.
If youre not happy wit the tools, they have a classified folder where you can sell them for a fair price.
southrider
Member
SRSemenza said:
Well - I obviously am mistaken, no I'm wrong.
My apologies to all.
SouthRider said:
No problem.
Seth
I think the moderators on here have always been really good. I don't use the FOG nowadays anywhere near as much as I used to but that is only because my priorities in life have changed. I do belong to a large Festool group on Facebook and my feed is often full of Festool related stuff. The arrogant style of the moderation on the group really got me down recently and I did consider leaving or unfollowing the group.
I think the free speech on here regarding Festool products is amazing when you consider that Festool own this site and the moderators have never offended me even when I haven't agreed with them. Keep up the good work.
Like many others my opinions on Festool have changed but I can't be bothered to air them. Life's too short. If it's that bad there are countless other options to solve a very first world problem.
For those that still feel the need to endlessly vent their frustrations we have a place in the UK called Speakers Corner. I'm not sure how big the crowds would be on this topic though. Prepare for disappointment!
I think the free speech on here regarding Festool products is amazing when you consider that Festool own this site and the moderators have never offended me even when I haven't agreed with them. Keep up the good work.
Like many others my opinions on Festool have changed but I can't be bothered to air them. Life's too short. If it's that bad there are countless other options to solve a very first world problem.
For those that still feel the need to endlessly vent their frustrations we have a place in the UK called Speakers Corner. I'm not sure how big the crowds would be on this topic though. Prepare for disappointment!
RobWoodCutter
Member
- Joined
- May 16, 2010
- Messages
- 89
I know of a few online forums that will lock threads, all threads.
When someone asks a questions and it gets answered, it gets locked.
When someone asks a question and no one answers the question but a bunch of folks just start posting to it, it gets locked.
This forces people that just want to complain on everyone else's post to start their own "complaint post." Since there is no real question being asked it is locked quickly. Multiple "complaint posts" will get you banned.
The theory is it is a professional forum that is focused on answering professional's question and sharing professional solutions related to the field and not a social site to sit around and complain or sit around and talk about aunt Bessey's plum pie recipe.
This site is definitely not that site. It is wide open and threads are rarely locked and are never locked because someone posting about a problem they are having with a tool they purchased. It is only after pages and pages of folks piling on and starting personal attacks.
There are some questions that are asked on the forum that just can't be answered. The mods/owners that post on this site are not the research/application engineers that designed the Festool products. And I can tell you from being around many researchers/application engineers they don't like giving answers until they can completely understand the issue and find if there is a solution to it. Some issues may take hours, some may take years to resolve. (How many years did it take to invent successful powered flight? Millions of years?) And if the solution is found and is not cost effective to fix in the current product and the problem only affects small portion of the customers, you wait and incorporate the solution into the next generation product.
When you look at this forum as a whole (all posts in all forums) and not just focus on a handful of post this is a top notch and friendly website.
Rob
When someone asks a questions and it gets answered, it gets locked.
When someone asks a question and no one answers the question but a bunch of folks just start posting to it, it gets locked.
This forces people that just want to complain on everyone else's post to start their own "complaint post." Since there is no real question being asked it is locked quickly. Multiple "complaint posts" will get you banned.
The theory is it is a professional forum that is focused on answering professional's question and sharing professional solutions related to the field and not a social site to sit around and complain or sit around and talk about aunt Bessey's plum pie recipe.
This site is definitely not that site. It is wide open and threads are rarely locked and are never locked because someone posting about a problem they are having with a tool they purchased. It is only after pages and pages of folks piling on and starting personal attacks.
There are some questions that are asked on the forum that just can't be answered. The mods/owners that post on this site are not the research/application engineers that designed the Festool products. And I can tell you from being around many researchers/application engineers they don't like giving answers until they can completely understand the issue and find if there is a solution to it. Some issues may take hours, some may take years to resolve. (How many years did it take to invent successful powered flight? Millions of years?) And if the solution is found and is not cost effective to fix in the current product and the problem only affects small portion of the customers, you wait and incorporate the solution into the next generation product.
When you look at this forum as a whole (all posts in all forums) and not just focus on a handful of post this is a top notch and friendly website.
Rob
RobWoodCutter said:
I 100% agree. All credit to the Mods and to Festool USA for having the guts to keep this going.
The handful of awkward people will soon realise that they do not understand the spirit of the FOG and that always being the first to turn a good thread into a rant can get boring very quickly.
Yes, you can talk about non Festool kit, have a dig at Festool and ask silly questions. But when the few that want to ruin things continue beyond the point of reason then it really is a bit sad.
Peter
I think the spirit of the FOG is free speech so all views are relevant. I myself have been at both ends of the spectrum over the years. I was once proudly what many would call a "fanboy" and look back at that now and wonder why I attributed so much value to tools. Things changed for a plethora of reasons and I became an incessant moaner and nowadays I prefer to be somewhere in the middle and sit on the fence. It leaves me in a position where I can't really judge anybody without being hypocritical. I do get why people want to continuously air their grievances, it's just that my world view nowadays is that if I want to rant it will be about something that really changes lives. Tools don't really cut it in that department.
FOG has changed and that's fine. It was always going to evolve as Festool evolve and not everybody will like whatever that direction is. I would only say that perhaps Festool in Germany could have come up with something a long time ago to calm the madding crowd. Who knows?
More to the point I'm sure that somewhere between 95-99.5% of Festool users don't come on here. They either do or don't like their tools and if it's the latter they just buy a different brand without any drama.
FOG has changed and that's fine. It was always going to evolve as Festool evolve and not everybody will like whatever that direction is. I would only say that perhaps Festool in Germany could have come up with something a long time ago to calm the madding crowd. Who knows?
More to the point I'm sure that somewhere between 95-99.5% of Festool users don't come on here. They either do or don't like their tools and if it's the latter they just buy a different brand without any drama.
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