Making windows and doors WIP

[Rob-GB]

As some of you know I am in a temporary workshop at the moment but trying to make the most of it. [smile]

So my latest project is underway and I only have my Festools to help me.

To the pics!

Morticing

The bit gave up

Cill Drips

Cill 9 degree bevels

3.6mtr long!

Continued...

 

[Rob-GB]

Coping and tenons

Sashes domino'd

Frame glue up

Still got loads to do!
Thanks for looking. [big grin]
Rob.

 

[bellchippy]

Rob

Great pictures, how easy is it doing tennons on the CMS and where did you get the ovlo coping cutter and profile cutter from, are you using sipo dominos. got some windows coming up and need to build them on site, sorry i asked so many questions.

thanks for any information

 

[Rob-GB]

Tenons roughed out with Kapex to make tenons easier, less chance of the cutter grabbing and to put less strain on the scribe cutter that I used for cleaning up the tenons on the scribe side.
CMS set up works great but things take that much longer to do than with big tennoners and spindle moulders.
Domino joints were a time saver, used the standard beech ones and Titebond 3 glue, no point in sipo ones if the joint is well glued and the frames are painted properly. If the domino's rot out then the frame will have been neglected for way to long ;D
Cut the domino mortices before bevelling both on cills and jambs, max depth setting so did not have to trim the domino's, pre- planned in the cad machine!  ;D
I did everything I could with the router out of the table first then worked through evrything I could with it in the table to reduce set up times.
Let us know how you get on.

Rob.

edit:- cutters are from Wealden tools, not the one that broke though, that was a Perform one fom Axy.

 

[-The Dutch Guy-]

Hi Rob,

That's a very interesting way to make the window sill. I've made something like that for our gardenhouse.
But yours is much better!

greetz René

 

[jmbfestool]

cant wait 4 more pictures!  Nice to see how you make a window!  Im learning! by the posts!

JMB

 

[Rob-GB]

Thanks Rene, it is an adaption of a jig found in many workshops for running cills using a thicknesser planer. So not something I could claim to be all my own thinking! [laughing]

Jmb, glad it may be of use to you, I will try to add more pics this week, it's just difficult to remember to take them when your immersed in a job.

To keep you going heres the one for the gable wall. Kapex made the angle cuts easy.

;D
Rob.

 

[AlexR]

Looking good.Cool low tech solutions there Rob.
Those beech tenons are serious weakness even if you knock up some red wood ones they'd be far superior.

 

[Rob-GB]

Looking good.Cool low tech solutions there Rob.
Those beech tenons are serious weakness even if you knock up some red wood ones they'd be far superior.

Thanks Alex.
Where is the weakness?
They are not exposed to the elements, the joints are well glued and the work is getting properly painted.
Beech is used after treating in marine pilings sometimes so wet conditions are not the biggest factor to think about.
What makes beech a less than ideal material for external joinery is various beetles liking for it, but it needs to be exposed first.
Contact with the ground and continuous M/C of greater than 20% will decrease it's service life, non of these tenons are so positioned.
I have faith that these windows will outlast both me and the clients.  ;D

Rob.

 

[Guy Ashley]

Bearing in mind the current standard of Joinery grade softwood we seem to be getting here in the UK at the moment, (full of knots and shakes, still bleeding resin) I think the frames are more likely to degrade before the beech dowels.

Rob, I am a bit of a traditionalist and have always used the Multico tenoner and Sedgwick morticer and Cascamite, so I would be interested if this process of Domino's in window frame joints is used out of necessity before your new workshop gets up and running or is it a process you favour.

I would never use it on doors for load bearing reasons but I suppose while musing this over using for jointing cills, heads and mullions should be ok.

I don't know any other joiners who use Domino' like this, but then again not many use Festool tools.

   

 

[woodguy7]

Rob

I agree with your thoughts on the beech dominoes.  I recently made a large oak window with loads of asticles & used 2 no 10mm x 50mm beech dominoes in each joint.  I have the sipo ones now but the largest i could get them in was 8mm x 50mm.

Keep up the good work

Woodguy.

 

[AlexR]

All this is pretty fresh in my mind as I just changed out a 15 year old failed sapele back door for customer. Very well maintained might add. This one

I cut the door up to see why the joints where failing. The wood is some kind of meranti/sapele not best exterior grade timber by far. What i found was jointed with 20mm beech dowels completely rotten, falling apart. After seen a couple of doors like that I wouldn't want to put my name to window or exterior joinery with beech anything.
Resinous heavy red wood is the good stuff [tongue] 

 

[ginocon]

Hi,

Saw the bit you used that gave up. Try using the Eagle America  upcut spiral bit 1/2" diameter 2" cutting length. Have one for about 3 years made about 60 window frames and about 15 large doors. All foating tenons, all of them made of Brazilian Hardwoods (Gonzalo Alves, Andiroba, etc) The bit is still reasonably sharp.
Furthermore very nice frames and joints.

Keep up the good work.

Gino

 

[Rob-GB]

Oooohhh! Lots of replies to make ;D

So:  Guy, this is the first time I've used them in this application. I tend to be, like yourself, a bit of a traditionalist. So I did some research.
Like you (and as I have posted on the fog before) I would not rely on domino tenons in doors or large opening sashes where weight and racking are an issue. On Static frames and small sashes I believe they will be more than okay.
These sashes are of the stormproof design, which usually have bridle joints, due to the fact they have two diagonally opposed rebates. Mass produced ones rely on glue and maybe a staple to hold it all together. The double tenon design using the domino has got to be stronger than that! Well that's how I got to thinking. ;D

Woodguy, cheers my friend...asticles eh! Can't you get a cream for those?  [laughing] Don't suppose you have pics of that job, it would be interesting. [smile]

Alex, may I ask who made the doors with beech dowells and what glue was used? I would also be interested to know what kind of exterior finish was used on those doors and how old are they?
Where in the country was that photo taken, the brickwork looks like a first year apprentice brick bond practice week one [eek] We have headers, 3/4 stretcher, flemish, english garden, and half bond all going haywire, my old Dad would have done his nut if he was around to see it. It brought a smile to my face to see it though. [smile]

Gino, I have been looking at some upcut spiral bits but having just spent £300.00 on router cutters for this project they will have to wait a while, until my spare ones follow the first.  [laughing] Don't think we can get the Eagle ones over here, anyone know otherwise?

Thanks for all your replies and observations, makes it worth posting, now gonna try and sort the latest pics. May not be that easy I just got my varifocals to test drive! [laughing]

Rob.

 

[Rob-GB]

Just went to find something and saw this.....

Thought my new specs had broke [eek]

[laughing] [laughing] [laughing]

 

[AlexR]

Rob, mass produced doors like that one have been made using loose tenon/dowel joinery for over 50 years and are still been. I've taken quite a few out,mainly back doors. As already stated about 15yr , finish was in good nick, probably polyurethane . As for location right here in Derby, yeah baby. As for brickwork, been the back of a Victorian house I can only guess the bricky who put Catnic lintel in,probably same time as that door, was doing it on friday afternoon with pub calling. [tongue]

 

[Rob-GB]

Or with the mother of hangovers [tongue]. Cheers for that!
I know, I've taken a lot of mass produced stuff out myself over the last 20 odd years, which is why I question the glue and the manufacturer, for the dowels to rot moisture had to get in and stay in at some point during the doors life span which then begs a question...'How did the moisture get past the decorative/protective layer?'
Rob.

 

[Guy Ashley]

The usual reason is that people trim the top or bottom and then either forget or cant be bothered to seal it and the end grain on the jambs suck wet and moisture in like straws straight into the joints.

It meets the glue line at the dowel/tenon and sits there as it cant really get any farther, swells then contracts, gets wet again then swells then contracts, etc, etc, etc until one day CRACK!

Thats why I , I suspect like you prefer through tenons with fox wedges and loads of Cascamite. Move now!!!  [big grin]

Dont forget these engineered dowel doors probably only have 40-50mm into the joint, such that it is.

 

[Rob-GB]

More pics,
Top Rail Tenon for door, hard to see but wedges are being cut from the waste part..

Same with bottom rail,

Ignore the rough cut lines, been a wee bit out of practice with 'Ye olde hand saws'  [laughing] Please can I have a bandsaw for Xmas!

Glue up time!

Check for square as you go,

Properly made mortices and tenons line up, no 80 grit belt sander required..

;D Lucky ain't I.

More to follow.

 

[woodguy7]

Rob

I don't think i have any pics of an open joint but here is a few pics of the window anyway.

Woodguy