six-point socket II
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Thank you for this statement Festool! [smile]
Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver
Message from Festool about Kapex Miter Saw
- Thread starter Administrator_JSVN
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Jiggy Joiner
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A recall would put a lot of worry to rest, and in truth should probably have been launched a long time ago.
Cheap washing machines, tumble dryers, toasters etc sometimes have recalls, so why not an expensive saw from a reputable manufacturer?
I see some are saying the machines supplied in 220-240 volt would be a good idea, I know of a good few 240 volt machines failing. It seems at first glance the 110 volt machines are more prone to fail but, it could be a percentage thing, simply because so many were sold in N.A.
I think this statement is a positive gesture going forward, albeit very late in the day. I just hope that any owners of pre 2017 saws, aren’t left up that famous creek without a paddle?
Cheap washing machines, tumble dryers, toasters etc sometimes have recalls, so why not an expensive saw from a reputable manufacturer?
I see some are saying the machines supplied in 220-240 volt would be a good idea, I know of a good few 240 volt machines failing. It seems at first glance the 110 volt machines are more prone to fail but, it could be a percentage thing, simply because so many were sold in N.A.
I think this statement is a positive gesture going forward, albeit very late in the day. I just hope that any owners of pre 2017 saws, aren’t left up that famous creek without a paddle?
What would be more reassuring would be an extended warranty for the new saws so that there is some teeth behind their claims of having fixed the problem. Also some kind of a recall and or extended warranty for owners of the older models.
Otherwise the statements from Festool looks like marketing hype without any substance behind them. "Trust us" is all I get from the statement.
Otherwise the statements from Festool looks like marketing hype without any substance behind them. "Trust us" is all I get from the statement.
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"- If the above is technically or financially not possible, offer/extend a one-time two-year warranty (on top of any warranty remaining) to all pre-2017 Kapexes."
This seems like a viable option for both sides. I don't have a Kapex but if I did I think this would go some distance toward easing my concerns, but seeing as many have encountered this condition as varying time intervals from the in-service date of the saw, that maybe 2 years is not enough. Three years added on the any remaining warranty might be more appropriate.
But I am glad to see them step up and say something, just wish it had happened sooner and required less backpressure from their consumer base to make it happen.
Mess up, fess up.
This seems like a viable option for both sides. I don't have a Kapex but if I did I think this would go some distance toward easing my concerns, but seeing as many have encountered this condition as varying time intervals from the in-service date of the saw, that maybe 2 years is not enough. Three years added on the any remaining warranty might be more appropriate.
But I am glad to see them step up and say something, just wish it had happened sooner and required less backpressure from their consumer base to make it happen.
Mess up, fess up.
ear3
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That's some careful lawyerly language we got here, that skillfully avoids pointing to any direct cause and effect (perhaps for liability reasons?). But here' how I read it:
"Over the years, we also continually looked for ways to improve the saw itself to further enhance durability and longevity. Some of these changes were never specifically marketed as it is a normal part of the constant quality improvement process that we implement to provide the world’s finest power tools."
So, some unspecified number of years after the introduction of the saw in 2008, they made some additional tweaks to the Kapex -- not ones that added a new feature, but perhaps a change in the manufacturing process or materials/components used.
"In recent years, some customers presented machines that seemed to have issues related to the motor longevity. Some of these machines had been working in the shop and the jobsite for years under various conditions and others may not have had as much use. These issues were random and individual, and a bit perplexing for us and it is not a normal experience for our motors. While we attempted to work with every customer to provide a high-quality product and address these issues as part of our commitment to provide high-quality service, some of the issues became public and brought even more attention to these issues."
This is the most obfuscating part of the statement -- they acknowledge the motor issues that have been frequently reported on the FOG, but don't say that there was an uptick in these problems relative to before. And although the implication of their sequencing of events is that these issues follow upon having made the previous,unspecified tweaks, they are careful not to draw any causal relationship (and perhaps their investigation of the problem revealed there was none, or was inconclusive).
"Since 2017 we have made improvements to the internal structure of motor components to produce an even more reliable machine.
We are confident that users will no longer experience these issues"
This is the most frustrating part of the statement. If you haven't figured out the cause and effect between the unspecified improvements and the motor issues, how can you be confident that they will no longer occur? Alternatively, if you do have confidence, that means you have a ballpark idea of what the underlying problem is, even if you don't know definitively. I understand that they aren't obligated to tell us what they changed in 2017, but their engineers know, and so there must be a reason why they made that specific change.
From a corporate liability standpoint, I understand why they wouldn't want to give us their best guess if there is still some uncertainty involved. But I think given the hit that Festool has taken over these problems, it would be a good faith gesture to extend the warranty on pre-2017 Kapexes that have motor problems.
"Over the years, we also continually looked for ways to improve the saw itself to further enhance durability and longevity. Some of these changes were never specifically marketed as it is a normal part of the constant quality improvement process that we implement to provide the world’s finest power tools."
So, some unspecified number of years after the introduction of the saw in 2008, they made some additional tweaks to the Kapex -- not ones that added a new feature, but perhaps a change in the manufacturing process or materials/components used.
"In recent years, some customers presented machines that seemed to have issues related to the motor longevity. Some of these machines had been working in the shop and the jobsite for years under various conditions and others may not have had as much use. These issues were random and individual, and a bit perplexing for us and it is not a normal experience for our motors. While we attempted to work with every customer to provide a high-quality product and address these issues as part of our commitment to provide high-quality service, some of the issues became public and brought even more attention to these issues."
This is the most obfuscating part of the statement -- they acknowledge the motor issues that have been frequently reported on the FOG, but don't say that there was an uptick in these problems relative to before. And although the implication of their sequencing of events is that these issues follow upon having made the previous,unspecified tweaks, they are careful not to draw any causal relationship (and perhaps their investigation of the problem revealed there was none, or was inconclusive).
"Since 2017 we have made improvements to the internal structure of motor components to produce an even more reliable machine.
We are confident that users will no longer experience these issues"
This is the most frustrating part of the statement. If you haven't figured out the cause and effect between the unspecified improvements and the motor issues, how can you be confident that they will no longer occur? Alternatively, if you do have confidence, that means you have a ballpark idea of what the underlying problem is, even if you don't know definitively. I understand that they aren't obligated to tell us what they changed in 2017, but their engineers know, and so there must be a reason why they made that specific change.
From a corporate liability standpoint, I understand why they wouldn't want to give us their best guess if there is still some uncertainty involved. But I think given the hit that Festool has taken over these problems, it would be a good faith gesture to extend the warranty on pre-2017 Kapexes that have motor problems.
I have a Kapex 120 EB 120v that would shut down during a cut---no smoke---just stopped. This occurred in April of this year and just a few months after the 3 year warranty had expired. I contacted Festool and they promptly shipped me a box to return it to them. I shipped it back to them on a Tuesday. They received it on Thursday of that week and I had back on Monday morning.
Festool's card's "Service Performed" indicated they replaced the brushes and motor components and it works great. They did this at no charge to me other than the initial shipping to them.
I am a happy camper!
Festool's card's "Service Performed" indicated they replaced the brushes and motor components and it works great. They did this at no charge to me other than the initial shipping to them.
I am a happy camper!
kevinculle
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It is completely disingenuous for Festool to claim both that they do not understand the root cause(s) of Kapex motor failures and that they have made a number of incremental improvements that will prevent such failures. If you don't understand the root cause(s) of a failure it is impossible to know how to prevent it. You might make any number of changes to components, subassemblies and related subsystems without having any impact on the original failure. I believe this is an attempt by Festool to put the Kapex motor failures behind them without taking responsibility for the field repairs. It is highly likely that this statement from Festool was necessitated by falling Kapex sales as the achilles heel of the Kapex became more widely known. It is also highly likely that Festool identified the root cause(s), modified the Kapex to eliminate the root cause(s) and hoped the issue would die away naturally. Unfortunately for them with a decade of field stock out there still vulnerable to failure, the issue remains front and center. So like a magician waving a cape to distract, Festool signals that new Kapex saws are good to go, that repaired Kapex saws should not fail after repair, but (nothing up my sleeve) since no root cause was ever found we're not really culpable for the field repairs...nothing was really wrong...move along, there's nothing to see here.
I think Festool would have been much better served to identify the root cause(s), explain the revisions, and offer a modest but honest bone to Kapex owners, like free shipping for Kapex motor failure repairs on older models.
I think Festool would have been much better served to identify the root cause(s), explain the revisions, and offer a modest but honest bone to Kapex owners, like free shipping for Kapex motor failure repairs on older models.
DynaGlide
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Frankly I'm shocked they've put out any sort of statement. They didn't have to. And coming from a German company makes it especially unusual.
I don't own a Kapex, might someday, might not. My DeWalt cuts just fine and I prefer the LED shadow line over a laser.
For those affected I think the best course of action is to vote with your wallet and move on. Take your licks if you suffered emotionally or financially. The only way you can force their hand is through a class action suit but then you'd need data to make your case which no one has. My Google Pixel had a faulty microphone and apparently I'll be getting $500 once the suit is settled before a judge. Google didn't out of their own good will agree to do any sort of recall/extended warranty.
In the Harley world questionable engineering choices are made all of the time. As long as the cheaper component used doesn't have a failure rate high enough to offset the savings then the beancounters are happy. There was a design change in 2006-2008 that caused a component to fail prematurely. Harley didn't say squat about it for years but happily made revisions to the part in question meaning they were attempting to fix it. Countless kits were produced and sold as 'the fix.' Internet threads not unlike this Kapex discusssion ensued, hundreds of pages long, speculating, reverse engineering, aftermarket bandaids. 2013 rolls around and Harley finally figured out a whole new component to correct the issue. And they were happy to sell it to anyone affected to the tune of about $400, labor excluded. No note of apology, no recall, no extended warranty's. Maybe it's my outlook on life but I bought it, put it in myself, and moved on. Never cared to lose sleep over it or get involved in all of the discussions.
I don't own a Kapex, might someday, might not. My DeWalt cuts just fine and I prefer the LED shadow line over a laser.
For those affected I think the best course of action is to vote with your wallet and move on. Take your licks if you suffered emotionally or financially. The only way you can force their hand is through a class action suit but then you'd need data to make your case which no one has. My Google Pixel had a faulty microphone and apparently I'll be getting $500 once the suit is settled before a judge. Google didn't out of their own good will agree to do any sort of recall/extended warranty.
In the Harley world questionable engineering choices are made all of the time. As long as the cheaper component used doesn't have a failure rate high enough to offset the savings then the beancounters are happy. There was a design change in 2006-2008 that caused a component to fail prematurely. Harley didn't say squat about it for years but happily made revisions to the part in question meaning they were attempting to fix it. Countless kits were produced and sold as 'the fix.' Internet threads not unlike this Kapex discusssion ensued, hundreds of pages long, speculating, reverse engineering, aftermarket bandaids. 2013 rolls around and Harley finally figured out a whole new component to correct the issue. And they were happy to sell it to anyone affected to the tune of about $400, labor excluded. No note of apology, no recall, no extended warranty's. Maybe it's my outlook on life but I bought it, put it in myself, and moved on. Never cared to lose sleep over it or get involved in all of the discussions.
Holzhacker
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Another corporate statement carefully worded with the help of lawyers. At least they came out with a statement.
Speaking completely from where the sun doesn't shine, I have to wonder if this wasn't some sort of supply chain quality control issue. Something where Festool was getting various internal components for the Kapex from other manufacturer's anyone of which may or may not have been the problem. Components made by the supplier in the morning worked great. Components made by the supplier after a liquid lunch, not so great.
I don't know.
My Kapex has been working on jobs and the shop for years. Never smoked, never had any of those other failure signs. It's aa pre 2017 if that matters.
Speaking completely from where the sun doesn't shine, I have to wonder if this wasn't some sort of supply chain quality control issue. Something where Festool was getting various internal components for the Kapex from other manufacturer's anyone of which may or may not have been the problem. Components made by the supplier in the morning worked great. Components made by the supplier after a liquid lunch, not so great.
I don't know.
My Kapex has been working on jobs and the shop for years. Never smoked, never had any of those other failure signs. It's aa pre 2017 if that matters.
Glad Festool have finally made a statement although they have only really confirmed what we already knew.
I don't think they need a full recall but certainly should contact all Kapex owners directly explaining the situation and offer to repair any burnt out saw whatever age with the updated part FOC. As far as I know the statement is only on here, not on their websites or anything so you would only know about it if you are on the FOG.
The one good thing to come out of it is members should now stop telling people who have had problems with their saw that they must have been abusing it/ using a blunt blade/ bad technique/ running it through extractor/ wrong size cable etc etc
Doug
I don't think they need a full recall but certainly should contact all Kapex owners directly explaining the situation and offer to repair any burnt out saw whatever age with the updated part FOC. As far as I know the statement is only on here, not on their websites or anything so you would only know about it if you are on the FOG.
The one good thing to come out of it is members should now stop telling people who have had problems with their saw that they must have been abusing it/ using a blunt blade/ bad technique/ running it through extractor/ wrong size cable etc etc
Doug
James Biddle
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What will they say the first time a failure occurs for a Kapex built after 2017? Has it already?
Jiggy Joiner
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James Biddle said:
I was hoping nobody would ask that [big grin]
2019 Kapex REB available in US in Oct with improved motor? Pre-orderhttps://www.festoolproducts.com/fes...eb-sliding-compound-miter-saw-2019-model.html
I don’t know if this is legitimate.
I don’t know if this is legitimate.
Jiggy Joiner
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jellyroll said:
Yes it's legitimate, they have been available in Europe for a while now, I have one myself.
It's part of a group of tools from Festool that are heading to the USA in October.
hemlock said:
We will find out how true this is as time goes by. It did take a while before users started complaining about the motor problem of the current generation of Kapexes.
I certainly hope Festool has nailed down the motor problem(s), and the fix(es) can be applied to the pre-2019 model if and when an older model Kapex goes south. As long as its motor is not a lemon, it is indeed the best-performing CMS in the market in many aspects.
Talk is cheap and cash talks and bull sh!t walks.... so why doesn't Fesstool put some teeth in this statement and agree to extended the warranty on the motors? Seems like it would be an awfully cheap way for them to end this PR nightmare. FWIW Festool did replace my motor for $75.44 plus shipping. It would have been nice to have some sort of guarantee that it won't happen again.
I am a long time wood worker but very new to Festool. I recently purchased a couple of sanders and a CT 26 dust collector. They are all great tools and I am very pleased with them.
My old Makita miter saw is due to be replaced and I am interested in a Kapex. Like everyone else here, I am aware of the issues and noticed that the new model had been introduced in the UK.
I wrote to Festool Customer Service on July 8, 2019 asking if they could tell me when the new Kapex would be introduced here in the US. I received the following reply.
“Hello,
There is no information available at this time about the introduction of the Kapex 120 REB tool to the North American Market. To stay informed of all Festool announcements you can sign up to the email distribution list by clicking on the link below.”
I wrote back and politely told them I thought their reply was disingenuous, that some one in Festool should know the answer. There was no reply back to my second note.
Although I am glad to see the new and hopefully improved Kapex will be available soon, I can’t help but wonder about all the secrecy and what certainly feels like deceit on the part of Festool.
My old Makita miter saw is due to be replaced and I am interested in a Kapex. Like everyone else here, I am aware of the issues and noticed that the new model had been introduced in the UK.
I wrote to Festool Customer Service on July 8, 2019 asking if they could tell me when the new Kapex would be introduced here in the US. I received the following reply.
“Hello,
There is no information available at this time about the introduction of the Kapex 120 REB tool to the North American Market. To stay informed of all Festool announcements you can sign up to the email distribution list by clicking on the link below.”
I wrote back and politely told them I thought their reply was disingenuous, that some one in Festool should know the answer. There was no reply back to my second note.
Although I am glad to see the new and hopefully improved Kapex will be available soon, I can’t help but wonder about all the secrecy and what certainly feels like deceit on the part of Festool.
