Message from Festool about Kapex Miter Saw

[Michael Kellough]

[member=70395]WarrenT[/member]  best thing that can be said about Festool’s marketing is that it’s myopic.

You wrote Festool July 8? Seems like that was mere days before Shane dropped this news about new products including the revised Kapex.

 

[semenza]

I am a long time wood worker but very new to Festool.  I recently purchased a couple of sanders and a CT 26 dust collector.  They are all great tools and I am very pleased with them.

My old Makita miter saw is due to be replaced and I am interested in a Kapex.  Like everyone else here, I am aware of the issues and noticed that the new model had been introduced in the UK.

I wrote to Festool Customer Service on July 8, 2019 asking if they could tell me when the new Kapex would be introduced here in the US.  I received the following reply.

“Hello,
There is no information available at this time about the introduction of the Kapex 120 REB tool to the North American Market. To stay informed of all Festool announcements you can sign up to the email distribution list by clicking on the link below.”

I wrote back and politely told them I thought their reply was disingenuous, that some one in Festool should know the answer.  There was no reply back to my second note. 

Although I am glad to see the new and hopefully improved Kapex will be available soon, I can’t help but wonder about all the secrecy and what certainly feels like deceit on the part of Festool.

Hi Warren,

    Welcome to the forum!  [smile]

        I am sure someone at Festool knows everything. But until official announcements are approved by the people that run the company, no one is going to tell anyone about anything. This is going to be true of every company.

Seth

 

[Dick Mahany]

I am a long time wood worker but very new to Festool.  I recently purchased a couple of sanders and a CT 26 dust collector.  They are all great tools and I am very pleased with them.

My old Makita miter saw is due to be replaced and I am interested in a Kapex.  Like everyone else here, I am aware of the issues and noticed that the new model had been introduced in the UK.

I wrote to Festool Customer Service on July 8, 2019 asking if they could tell me when the new Kapex would be introduced here in the US.  I received the following reply.

“Hello,
There is no information available at this time about the introduction of the Kapex 120 REB tool to the North American Market. To stay informed of all Festool announcements you can sign up to the email distribution list by clicking on the link below.”

I wrote back and politely told them I thought their reply was disingenuous, that some one in Festool should know the answer.  There was no reply back to my second note. 

Although I am glad to see the new and hopefully improved Kapex will be available soon, I can’t help but wonder about all the secrecy and what certainly feels like deceit on the part of Festool.

Hi Warren,

    Welcome to the forum!  [smile]

        I am sure someone at Festool knows everything. But until official announcements are approved by the people that run the company, no one is going to tell anyone about anything. This is going to be true of every company.

Seth

I think most companies follow similar guidelines regarding future tool releases........In 2017 I contacted Bosch Marketing inquiring when the 12V FlexiClick would be available in the US and got nearly the same response below.  Less than 3 weeks later it was listed online for preorder with availability 30 days later, so I think Festool simply responded in typical fashion.

[attachimg=1]

 

[WarrenT]

Thank you Seth for the welcome and to Michael and Dick for your advice.  I am fortunate to be retired so woodworking and this Kapex business are a hobby for me.

Given the Kapex debacle I thought perhaps Festool would be interested in stepping up their customer service game a bit on this issue.  By the time you buy that saw, a dust hose, and a couple of blades, you are into it for a couple of thousand bucks. I expected a little more help from Festool with my question, but I am sure they realize their company won’t live or die based on my purchases.

Thanks again for the responses.  8)

 

[threesixright]

I am a long time wood worker but very new to Festool.  I recently purchased a couple of sanders and a CT 26 dust collector.  They are all great tools and I am very pleased with them.

My old Makita miter saw is due to be replaced and I am interested in a Kapex.  Like everyone else here, I am aware of the issues and noticed that the new model had been introduced in the UK.

I wrote to Festool Customer Service on July 8, 2019 asking if they could tell me when the new Kapex would be introduced here in the US.  I received the following reply.

“Hello,
There is no information available at this time about the introduction of the Kapex 120 REB tool to the North American Market. To stay informed of all Festool announcements you can sign up to the email distribution list by clicking on the link below.”

I wrote back and politely told them I thought their reply was disingenuous, that some one in Festool should know the answer.  There was no reply back to my second note. 

Although I am glad to see the new and hopefully improved Kapex will be available soon, I can’t help but wonder about all the secrecy and what certainly feels like deceit on the part of Festool.

Deceit? Are you kidding me, what do they win with that? They make all these great tools. And when it comes to a mitre saw, they would choose to willingly mislead their customers? I don’t see it.

Maybe there is no secrecy? Just a tool that breaks a little bit more then it should [emoji6]? There are no numbers (AFAIK) of sold vs issues so it’s a endless debate. Without facts.

No offense. I understand you want a good tool (who wouldn’t). But if you have doubts by another brand? I’m on the fence for a Kapex and will not give this “potential” issue a second thought. I only hear and read great reviews and that some people have had issues. I’m sure people also had their drill or sander break after “just” been out of warranty.

Sent from my X using Tapatalk

 

[glass1]

You are ridiculous.

 

[harry_]

I only hear and read great reviews and that some people have had issues.

I fit into both of these categories. I have two. Both are used on site. If you use a SCMS for a living the KAPEX is worth the investment... and the 'risk'

One had recently gone back to Indiana for a 'motor repair'. $900+ in parts and two weeks later (Festool service if FAST, UPS however not so much, they fixed things I didn't even realize I was having issues with!  I was fortunate in that it was still under warranty.

I swear the saw is smoother than day one out of the box!

 

[threesixright]

[member=4687]glass1[/member]
I wrote "no offence" ???

Was just trying to say deceitful and disingenuous are strong words, if you can't back-it-up with facts. Although I would wish FT was more open and transparent about this, I don't think they deserve these qualifications.

[member=7442]harry_[/member]
Thanks, my point.

 

[Jiggy Joiner]

I have heard first hand, and read many stories on websites including this one, about Kapex 120 failures. So many in fact I could possibly write a book about it!

The issue or potential issue for certain 120’s to take a dive is very real, not a myth or hearsay, it was/is still a potential issue with many saws out there.

Also, and this is opinion based, I have found that number of issues I alone have heard and know about to be worrying for such a premium tool with a substantial price tag.
So, the problem is real, that’s not what Festool or a customer wants by any means but, none the less it exists.
So, it’s then, as a company, how Festool deal with the “problem” that matters.
Blaming user error or voltage fluctuation is like rubbing salt in the wound. Denying there is any problem or potential problem is plain silly, and a bit of an insult.

I have had a multitude of mitre saws over many years from various makes, and they have worked hard, and none ever suffered this type of failure?

I didn’t buy a Kapex for a very long time, because of the doubt deep in my mind brought on by the stories of failures.

I recently unexpectedly needed to buy another large mitre saw, I still fancied a Kapex because of all of the great reports I’d heard about them. I have heard far more really good reports and reviews, rather than bad, so I was in a quandary.

I then heard about a new improved KS 120 REB. So, I decided to take a chance, if it dies, I have warranty (for a while).

I’ve now used the saw a lot, for all kinds, from small trims to roof trusses and joists.
I and anybody that uses it, look after and respect it but, it gets used throughout it’s capacity, not baby’d or wrapped in cotton wool, just used as it was designed for.
It does spend more time in a workshop than on site, as we have other saws for the majority of site work but, even in the workshop, it’s cutting all kinds.

I really do love the saw, it is everything I’d heard it would be and more, and when you actually own one, you realise how good a design they are. The only thing I still can’t get used to, is the sound of the motor. I say that about the Festool plunge saws as well though. So not an issue, just something I need to get used too.

So, hopefully the latest saw, and later parts on the older saws will eradicate the issue, or potential for it, lets hope so, as I’m sure Festool do too.

I appreciate the statement here, it confirms what most of us already knew, and is more transparent than I’ve heard from many Festool employees.
I have asked many times Festool employees, Festool dealers etc about the issue, most or many shrug their shoulders and say “what issue?” Or words to that effect. Some have been very honest, and although loyal to the company they work for, have acknowledged what’s been asked, and usually reply that certain parts on certain machines had the potential to fail.

So that at least tells me, they knew/know of the problem.
So the statement here although very welcomed, was quite a long time coming.

I must say though, the reports of Kapex failures seem to be a lot fewer now, both on here and elsewhere. Let’s hope it continues that way.

 

[ChuckM]

One had recently gone back to Indiana for a 'motor repair'. $900+ in parts

I hope this is a misquote. I have seen $300 quotes or something like that before in this forum. $900 for real?

 

[peter halle]

One had recently gone back to Indiana for a 'motor repair'. $900+ in parts

I hope this is a misquote. I have seen $300 quotes or something like that before in this forum. $900 for real?

He wrote it was covered under warranty.  He also wrote that a whole bunch of other stuff was replaced.

Peter

 

[ChuckM]

a new Kapex is $1500; $900 is 60%...who would spend that kind of money if it was out of warranty. If my car broke down and the dealership quoted me a repair cost at 60% of a brand new model, I know it had to be april 1st.

 

[harry_]

One had recently gone back to Indiana for a 'motor repair'. $900+ in parts

I hope this is a misquote. I have seen $300 quotes or something like that before in this forum. $900 for real?

I was surprised by the length of the parts list of all was replaced. So I got curious and looked them all up via EKAT and since i was going through the bother, fetched the prices for those parts as well.

A one of those items to me was an obvious non-warranty item.  A wing for the fence. it was an obvious 'mis-use' as one of my guys attempted a bevel cut without sliding the wing out of the way. I just chalked it up to Festool service going the extra mile to take care of a (Kapex) customer.

They also changed out the baseplate. I didn't know I had an issue there. Had they called me on it I would have paid to 'upgrade' the baseplate to the new style w/ the extensions (if compatible). Not complaining, just saying.

Granted the parts were priced at retail not cost. Given the parts replaced, which required a near complete teardown with labor factored in I couldn't help but wonder why they didn't just send a new saw. Not saying that they _should_ have but I was wowed by the extent/(their) cost of repair.

 

[threesixright]

a new Kapex is $1500; $900 is 60%...who would spend that kind of money if it was out of warranty. If my car broke down and the dealership quoted me a repair cost at 60% of a brand new model, I know it had to be april 1st.

I assume you meant you buy the new one?   In that case, still depends on the price of the car, no?  [big grin]

If its repaired (basically refurbished for that price?) with warranty, I would give it a second thought. Especially if there are no differences between the models.

 

[ChuckM]

In all the industries I have worked, any repair cost quoted at 60% of a brand new purchase of the same or similar item would be deemed as beyond economical repair, and the item is usually written off. But antiques, sentimental objects etc. warrant a different set of considerations of course.

a brand passenger car these days costs about $20,000 - $30,000 (Cdn). I cannot imagine paying $10,000 for a fix on an old car. For a higher-end car at $60,000 - $80,000, a $35,000 repair bill for an older model would hardly be a good investment even though warranty for the parts replaced is usually included...unless it is paid by the insurance company.

 

[threesixright]

In all the industries I have worked, any repair cost quoted at 60% of a brand new purchase of the same or similar item would be deemed as beyond economical repair, and the item is usually written off. But antiques, sentimental objects etc. warrant a different set of considerations of course.

a brand passenger car these days costs about $20,000 - $30,000 (Cdn). I cannot imagine paying $10,000 for a fix on an old car. For a higher-end car at $60,000 - $80,000, a $35,000 repair bill for an older model would hardly be a good investment even though warranty for the parts replaced is usually included...unless it is paid by the insurance company.

It all depends what the 10K is for.  If its a fix that makes you be able to run it without issues another 10 years. You shoot yourself in the food (spending another 20k) being a new car(economical wise). If its just (another) 10K, and you expect new bills pouring in monthly, I agree.

I understood this (Kapex repair) is basically a refurbished price. So you should expect the Kapex to run another 10 years, which put the repair costs IMO in another day-light.

 

[Lzd4km]

The first business and only business of any business is getting and keeping customers, that is the only thing addressed here.
For the price of approximately 3 Makita's hopefully whoever gets the new Festool Kapex KS 120 REB Miter Saw with Stand and Extensions I just canceled will last whomever buys it a lifetime, but based on what I've read here it won't be me.
Every company makes some bad cost savings decisions from time to time. Hopefully, they will learn what W. Edwards Deming taught; "you can not measure the damage disgruntled customers can do to you business." It is the one thing that is "unknown and unknowable." Just ask General Motors.  BTW it's not continuous or continued improvement, it's continual improvement. Looks like they finally took time to figure out why their sales of Kapex was in the ditch. Move along, nothing to see here. Love my Domino DF 500...so far so good.

 

[peter halle]

People are free to buy whatever tools they wish.  Thank you for your input within minutes of joining the forum!  Look forward to more contributions.  Any projects to share?  Our members here love to read about projects especially if images are attached.

Peter

 

[rj_mccall]

People are free to buy whatever tools they wish.  Thank you for your input within minutes of joining the forum!  Look forward to more contributions.  Any projects to share?  Our members here love to read about projects especially if images are attached.

Peter

[member=72965]Lzd4km[/member] i’d love to see the “3 Makita” miter station build, specifically photos of your dust collection.... Thanks!

 

[Lzd4km]

I did not say I have a Makita. I just referred to it's cost. I do need to purchase a new compound miter saw and had ordered the referenced Kapex, but the ship date was delayed until August 1 according to my preferred vendor. I truly hope the engineering investigation (root cause analysis) revealed the real issue for the Kapex and it works out well and I believe Festool wants this too. 
I am a retired (formally certified) Jet engine technician and I have been working with wood since my seventh grade shop class. I currently have a well used and abused Domino 500 that I bought second (or third) hand at a pawn shop and it has given up the ghost so to speak. I was a loose tool with no systainer, power cord and a 6mm bit, so I machined a plug out of Delrin and kind of made it work. I never tried to register the domino as it was a pawn shop purchase and had not been cared for at all, but after I repaired the corner of the plate it worked well for 2 years. It also does not have a readable serial number if that tells you anything. (Police notified and cleared for purchase.)
I have a new Festool 574432 Domino Joiner DF 500 Q Set coming and am looking forward to it's arrival this week and I will register it. It will be so nice to have one with all the parts and the systainer to boot. So yes, I am new to the user group, but not exactly new to Festool, just almost on the fringe.
I fully understand why Festool (or any other company) would not share the specifics of an engineering change. If you haven't tried to guard your means and methods of design and manufacture from the competition its probably difficult to grasp.
As I mentioned earlier I do need (actually want) a new compound miter saw as the one I have will not cut square (according to Starrett) as the articulating arm tilts top left and moves to the right as it extends across the cut. This makes the cut compound even when set to 90 X 90 degrees. It's good enough for framing a house, but that's it. It really hasn't been that big of a problem because I usually cut oversize and plane to my gauge lines anyway, it's just become too annoying and too expensive or time consuming to fix.
Yes, people still use hand tools. Love my Pfeil chisels.
I do regret my first post being negative and being spooked on the new Kapex saw. As my old boss used to say, it only takes one Ah heck to erase a thousand kudos. Just know there is a guy or gal who built the rotating parts of an engine that might be limping a B-1 home with three engines out, flying across where ever. For me rotation failure is a really big deal.