Mft/3 fence

[MC Dig]

Hi,

My name is Michael and I am new to Festools and to this forum.  I made furniture in Los Angeles and had a small shop there.

I sold all my tools and moved back east last october.  I got a job building some built ins here and had to tool up.  I had seen the festools and have drooled over them for awhile - especially the domino and ts55.  So I got the ts55 and two tracks and used that to put in 1000sq feet of subfloor, it was very fast and a joy to use. 

Then to build the cabinets I got the df-500, a router, the mft/3 plus the fence and the parallel guide kit with extensions. 

My main problem has been trying to get repeatable square cuts with the mft/3 fence, actually just getting one square cut would be nice - I can get repeatable cuts that are out of square. 

I used several different methods to square the fence, I followed the instructions in the booklet, the videos and also tried using some bench dogs to reference both the fence and the guide rail. 

Each time the fence and guide rail seem exactly square my cut is off by about a half millimeter 10 inches out from the corner.  I know I am not trying to make musical instruments here but it is off enough to bug me. I can get better results just marking the work and lining up the rail. 

I am trying to put my finger on the problem, is it possible that the guide rail is not parallel?  I am setting it up and checking referencing the back side of the guide rail, if the guide rail is not parallel that could be the problem. 

I also tried setting the guide rail up against a pair of dogs, then clamping the guide rail to the table, then tightening everything up, and that did not work too well.

I am very close to just returning this and giving up on it.  I really want it to work and it looks like it can, any tips would be appreciated.  I am new to festools but I do have experience setting up a table saw and using power tools in general to good effect (as you can see at www.blacksheepworkshop.com)

Thanks for any help.

 

[sancho57]

Welcome to the FOG, Here is a current thread on this very subject

http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/squaring-up-the-mft-rig-and-a-good-square/

another one

http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-how-to/gregory-paolini's-version-of-setting-up-the-mft3/

 

[MC Dig]

I checked those threads already, maybe I should have posted there.  Anyway i guess I will keep trying.

 

[copcarcollector]

Have you adjusted the saw base to the rail - Is the saw itself riding snug on the rail, or does it have any side to side play? Do you think you may be pushing the rail and/or  saw near the end of the cut causing the out of square problem?

I have very limited experience with the TS saw, but those are the two isues that popped into my head so far--

 

[whitesys]

Hi,

This may address the issue you are experiencing
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-jigs-tool-enhancements/reducing-rail-guide-slop-when-in-mft3-rail-system/

One of the FOG members sells an adjustable insert for the rail called Stop Slop which helps
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-jigs-tool-enhancements/my-railtab-slop-fix/
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/slop-stop-for-guide-rail-on-mft/

Dave

 

[panelchat]

hi Michael- where on the east coast are you? I have a similar east coast/west coast situation...

there is a lot of discussion on squaring up the mft, but usually nobody states exactly what kind of work they are doing with it- as in, how precise does their cuts need to be.
so the discussion goes all over the place.

my quick trick to get it nicely squared specifically for making euro cabinets is to get precision dogs ( i use Qwas dogs) set behind the fence and bump the fence back against them to register it square (the hole set is very square), tighten it, and i just leave them in place and dont use the plastic fence clamp. lazy but effective. then square the guide rail off that. others on this forum do this, or similar, as well for getting tight tolerances desired in cabinet making. there are now other aftermarket thingys for this also on this forum.

just did a 15' run of base cabinets using this approach and they installed with no appreciable compounding error from cases racking. some parts were something like a half/quarter millimeter off square, but the cases assembled quite square and the run went in fine, and the mft passed my test fine overall as a cross cutting tool.

one other thing is i disregarded the factory settings of the guide rail holder stops while trouble shooting this square thing... many will disagree here, but it worked for me. i've spent plenty of time in a machine shop and tend to second guess these things.

for me the hole set is the true gem of the mft table, if you keep it you will constantly find new, satisfying ways to use the holes, esp with precision dogs. festool or not, i would never go without that kind of hole set in my shop in the future.

hope this helps.

 

[panelchat]

i also put a starrett meter tape on the fence and made a little plexi block for the flag stop that hairlines/sights the increments on the tape, like a table saw fence, for no brainer measured/repeat cuts.
works fine, save tons of time, would post a pic but its waay past bedtime...

 

[fastbike]

If you're setting the rail and fence square to dogs, and still out of square, then your material doesn't have a square reference edge to start.

I have found the I almost always have to square the material by selecting / creating a reference edge. Makes for extra cuts but material quality just isn't what it used to be.

You do need to make sure your saw runs staight on the rail, without any side slop.

I get less than 1mm out of square over ~40 inches.

The slop stop is essential if you use the factory hinge. Some have gone to rail dogs instead.

 

[sancho57]

Mike,

exactly what are you trying to cut?

There somethings that arent mentioned in the threads.

One is if your cutting ply, clean off the factory edge first. I do this by using my 118" guide rail. Prior to owning the 11" rail,  I connected 2 55" guide rails together. Then use the newly cleaned edge for reference. Use a set of paralell guides whether festools or after market  to ripp the ply to width, Again referencing off the cleaned off factory edge to begin with.

This ensures that the rips will be parallel with each other. Place your ply against the MFT fence after squaring it. Be sure to cut both ends of the ply to ensure that they are square to the fence. Use the flag stops to ensure repetitive cuts. I own 3 flag stops. keep them o the MFT fence and use the as a story pole.

As far as repeatability, once you square up the MFT properly you should be able to get repeatable cuts.

Here is another vid taking from the Festool end user class. Its 1 of a 3 pt series.



I also find that Guido Henns videos on u tube are very helpful. They are in german but easy to follow. The Kaos Theorie is awesome. He demonstrates the process is a really understandable way.

 

[frodo]

Michael,

I had the same issue you are having and almost gave up. Then I bought the " slop-stop " and it helped take out the slight lateral movement of the rail at the front of the table.

 

[peter halle]

I pulled out my MFT/3 to go thru in my mind some issues posted both in this thread and also in another.  My role as a Moderator is not to criticize but rather than to either provide assistance or enlist and encourage assistance from members.  So please take every one of the following questions as being asked to try and help.  I visited your website and can certainly understand how primarily squareness would be important to you.

1.  Are you comfortable that the square you are measuring the results with is square or have you tested against dogs set in the table top?  You would really need four dogs to test this way.

2.  If you have your MFT/3 set up ready to cut and you grab the end of the rail at the front of the table when it is in the down position and try to move it side to side - does it have any movement?  Different people have different amounts and this can cause an issue if it isn't taken into account when setting the initial settings.  If you have much movement (I am one of the guys who only has a miniscule amount) then why don't you try to wrap the prong with electrical or duct tape (I tried it this morning) and then force your rail down onto the prong and try to re calibrate to see the result.

3.  You seem to be getting repeatability, so unless you are consistently doing something with your body mechanics all the time it has to be the setup.  If you want to try and remove that from the equation ( for instance body posture forcing something one way or another at the beginning or end of a cut (which I do not think is a high probability)) then perhaps try moving the fence towards you and try that.  I am not suggesting that is the way that you should be forced to work - just to try a sample to eliminate another cause.  I have cut many sheets of plywood and have experienced the change in body dynamics.

Others here have also asked other questions that might shed some light into what's going on so I hope we collectively can ease or eliminate your frustration.

One last thing, it would be interesting to see you perform the four cut method that is described starting on page 24 of the:  http://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/Kapex-KS120-Supplemental-Manual.pdf  .  I plan to take my setup a little later and do it on mine to test my accuracy.

We are all here to help.

Peter

 

[panelchat]

one other thing i do when seeking cuts as square as they can be is set the table super level to ensure it is flat. i put a level on the top and check it in two directions for level. i think if the top is racked slightly due to crooked floor (my floor is awful) then the system will go very slightly out of square, just enough to annoy if doing cabinetry/precise cuts...

 

[sancho57]

I pulled out my MFT/3 to go thru in my mind some issues posted both in this thread and also in another.  My role as a Moderator is not to criticize but rather than to either provide assistance or enlist and encourage assistance from members.  So please take every one of the following questions as being asked to try and help.  I visited your website and can certainly understand how primarily squareness would be important to you.

1.  Are you comfortable that the square you are measuring the results with is square or have you tested against dogs set in the table top?  You would really need four dogs to test this way.

2.  If you have your MFT/3 set up ready to cut and you grab the end of the rail at the front of the table when it is in the down position and try to move it side to side - does it have any movement?  Different people have different amounts and this can cause an issue if it isn't taken into account when setting the initial settings.  If you have much movement (I am one of the guys who only has a miniscule amount) then why don't you try to wrap the prong with electrical or duct tape (I tried it this morning) and then force your rail down onto the prong and try to re calibrate to see the result.

3.  You seem to be getting repeatability, so unless you are consistently doing something with your body mechanics all the time it has to be the setup.  If you want to try and remove that from the equation ( for instance body posture forcing something one way or another at the beginning or end of a cut (which I do not think is a high probability)) then perhaps try moving the fence towards you and try that.  I am not suggesting that is the way that you should be forced to work - just to try a sample to eliminate another cause.  I have cut many sheets of plywood and have experienced the change in body dynamics.

Others here have also asked other questions that might shed some light into what's going on so I hope we collectively can ease or eliminate your frustration.

One last thing, it would be interesting to see you perform the four cut method that is described starting on page 24 of the:  http://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/Kapex-KS120-Supplemental-Manual.pdf  .  I plan to take my setup a little later and do it on mine to test my accuracy.

We are all here to help.

Peter

Hey ya gonna give us another video too [big grin]

 

[sancho57]

Mike,

I know this is extremely basic and not meant to offend.

Especially after seeing the beautiful work you do,

But before you crosscut on the MFT do you double check to make sure that the material is up against the MFT fence.

I wont tell you how I learned to check that  [tongue]

But the material can move slightly. Ive had a lot of out of square material in my day, so now out of habit I alway double check before I make the cut.

 

[peter halle]

Hey ya gonna give us another video too [big grin]

Do you want a video of the 4 cut method?

Peter

 

[sancho57]

Sure why not?

just be sure to have that bottle of green kool aid with ya

 

[peter halle]

Well, I did shoot multiple takes today including some great bloopers and my initial setup as done yesterday measured out at 89.96 degrees approximately.  I say approximately because I didn't have my digital calipers with me.  Two adjustments later I quit at approx. 89.996.  I saved that off-cut and will measure with a digital caliper to get the real number.  I will not post the video until I reset up the MFT and do it again to see what the repeatability is on my setup.

Thank you Rick for including that in the supplemental manual and answering what the final result represents.  It is variation in degrees.

Michael, I hope that you will post back so that we can try to help you work thru your situation.

Peter

PS - Sancho - That was actually paste food coloring from my wife's cake decorating kit in bottled water.  YUCK!  If that is what the green Koolaid tasted like we would all be talking DeWalt here.  Next time it will be real. 

Peter

 

[sancho57]

Dood.

That like getting a Chicago electric tool and painting it green and blue…. [mad]

 

[Kevin Stricker]

I've had plenty of frustration with the MFT fence over the years, here are some of the things I have learned make a difference.

- if you square the fence then lock it down with the black clamp you can have problems as the clamp can pull the MFT from square.

-don't clamp your workpiece with quick clamps as they have a tendency to pull your workpiece slightly, use the standard clamps instead.

- I have had a couple wraps of electrical tape on the prong of the rail guide for years, that helps with the slop.

- like others have said, notice your body mechanics when making your cuts.  If your pieces are over 90 pull the fence with your off hand as you cut, if under then push.  See if that makes a difference. 

- make sure you are keeping your saw plunged until the back of the blade passes the edge of the workpiece otherwise your off cut will have an un-square starting edge.

Good luck.

 

[MC Dig]

Thank you for all the responses. Sorry I have not responded I have been getting started on these cabinets and am a little behind schedule. 

I went to return the $30 combination square on monday I recently bought and exchanged it for a starret.  My shop mate used to have one of those and I used it all the time.  I just want to eliminate that as a potential problem. 

The thing that is interesting is that I can hold the square up to the fence and guide rail and the alignment will look perfect, then the cut is off. 

I got some bench dogs from tool improvements and butted the plywood up to the dogs, then used the square to set the guide rail to the plywood.  I got a great cut that time.  I locked down the fence in that position.  I have not spent the time yet to go back and reset the fence and recheck or to do more tests. 

I have to do some crosscuts today so I will check it out and report back

I am thinking about just using dogs instead of the fence and using that money toward the little router.

Thank you for the compliments on my work and the help with my problem.