MFT Hole Jigs

[JeromeM]

I have the LR32 system and a brand new MFT top that could be used as a template already but have been kicking around the Parf Guide Mark II system and the Woodpeckers Hole-Boring Jig because at first it seemed like going either of those routes might be better. But now Im feeling a little more confused!

Ben, my suggestion is to forget the Woodpeckers option and go with the LR 32 as you already have everything you need.

I disagree with trying to use the LR 32 system by itself. There are far better options around now.

When I made my template using the LR 32 there was nothing else available it is all too easy to get your alignment off, I did on a couple of rows, then the benefits of the template are gone. This was in 2009http://festoolownersgroup.com/member-projects/20mm-hole-on-a-96mm-grid-system-(mft-top-style)/msg78004/#msg78004

Far better options are; CNC, Parfguide and possibly (I haven't used mine yet) the DominoFix.

There is a discussion athttp://festoolownersgroup.com/festo...ents/dominofix-in-canada/msg559291/#msg559291

My conclusion is that assuming the DominoFix works as advertised it's the best for making a full hole top.

If you don't need the complete set of holes the Parfguide is far more versatile than anything else.

The LR 32 can make the grid but it's very much more difficult to get it mm perfect.

You can use an MFT top as a template but you are almost certainly going to create wear damage to it very quickly.

 

[Euclid]

It’s usually when we have a tough job on that is very physically demanding, lot’s of lifting and carrying (I’m not 21 anymore) So, I then state that I need to sort something out, and proceed to making a new top with the PGS. It’s then a very welcomed task.  [big grin] [wink]

Love it! What's the expression? - work smarter, not harder!

 

[Jiggy Joiner]

It’s usually when we have a tough job on that is very physically demanding, lot’s of lifting and carrying (I’m not 21 anymore) So, I then state that I need to sort something out, and proceed to making a new top with the PGS. It’s then a very welcomed task.  [big grin] [wink]

Love it! What's the expression? - work smarter, not harder!

Haha! Yes, well I have my little perks.  [wink]

 

[threesixright]

The LR 32 can make the grid but it's very much more difficult to get it mm perfect.

Why is that? the holes are perfectly space on the rails itself, no?

You do need to have a square sheet, but thats for all jigs.

Maybe I'm overlooking something [embarassed]?

 

[Bob D.]

Of all the options the Parf Guide System is the most accurate short of a CNC I think.

 

[JeromeM]

The LR 32 can make the grid but it's very much more difficult to get it mm perfect.

Why is that? the holes are perfectly space on the rails itself, no?

You do need to have a square sheet, but thats for all jigs.

Maybe I'm overlooking something [embarassed]?

The spacing along the rail is of course perfect.

The problem is getting each row perfectly aligned with the other rows, since there is no built in triangulation and no way to simply check that the rows are absolutely correct.

This means that you have rows of perfectly spaced holes that can be very slightly offset or slightly out of parallel to each other. I came up with a way to ensure parallel but did not find anyway to guarantee that hey were not offset.

The PGS has triangulation built into it.
The DominoFix has the template CNCed so can't have that problem.

The great advantages of the PGS is that once sufficient 3mm holes have been drilled you can at any time bore out any of the 20mm holes you need also you can drill an isometric top permitting angles not possible on the other systems

 

[Cheese]

Thanks [member=44099]Cheese[/member] that makes a ton of sense! I couldn't figure out how a smaller jig like that would stay true over a big top!

[member=67145]Dusty.Tools[/member] actually the Woodpeckers jig is incredibly accurate for hole placement when used with a little common sense and care.

Here's a photo of the LH edge of the 1st hole and a photo of the LH edge of the 11th hole. A total distance of 1055.5 mm versus the theoretical perfect value of 1056 mm. 

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

So a .5 mm deviation over 42 inches... that's pretty impressive.

The real issue when using the current Woodpeckers solution are the diameter aberrations when using their jig. They use a 1/2" diameter router bit to make a 3/4" or 20 mm diameter hole. This means the bit is plunged through the material but a lot of lateral force is needed to completely clean up the hole diameter without leaving diameter artifacts behind. This is what a typical hole looks like before it is cleaned up for the 2nd, 3rd or 4th time. This is in Baltic birch but the situation is similar in MDF.

[attachimg=3]

This means it's a very laborious process to produce truly round holes because sometimes the holes have to be tweaked 3-4 times before you move the jig.

A further annoying issue is that the OF 1400 has a router plate bushing that is not directly fastened to the router base, rather it's held in place with a series of spring clips. The spring clips allow router plate bushing movement in both the X and Y axis, to the tune of .004"-.008"...that's not good.

The only method that will eliminate these issues is to eliminate the lateral forces placed on the router. Thus, I machined a larger bushing that centered the 1400 in the Woodpeckers jig and I then used a Festool 20 mm router bit to machine the holes. A straight plunging action with no lateral pressure that produced a perfectly round 20 mm hole. 

 

[Jiggy Joiner]

That’s very impressive Cheese  [thumbs up]
The point you made about the plunge action is also often overlooked, the same as a poor drilling technique used on a PGS.

Slight side to side wobble on a few cuts, can make a fair bit of difference overall, as you well know.
Another reason why CNC is so tight.

 

[Cheese]

That’s very impressive Cheese  [thumbs up]
The point you made about the plunge action is also often overlooked, the same as a poor drilling technique used on a PGS.

Slight side to side wobble on a few cuts, can make a fair bit of difference overall, as you well know.
Another reason why CNC is so tight.

Thanks Jiggy [member=69479]Jiggy Joiner[/member] , like your new avatar...it's kind of retro.  [big grin]

Just to prove the lateral force issues with the 1400 are real, here are some photos.

Measuring the play perpendicular to the axis of the mounting tabs:
Indicator zeroed out on the bushing

[attachimg=1]

The bushing is now being pushed in a downwards direction, .008" of movement.

[attachimg=2]

Measuring the play along the axis of the mounting tabs:
Indicator zeroed out

[attachimg=3]

The bushing is again being pushed in a downwards direction, .003" of movement.

[attachimg=4]

The 1400 was never designed to make perfectly round holes in the way that Woodpeckers is using it. The 1010 would work because the router bushing plate is screwed to the base, however, it does not accept 1/2" diameter bits.

Lastly, here's a photo of the aluminum bushing I made for the 1400. It's a snug fit in the Woodpeckers jig and on the Woodpeckers guide bushing. Simple plunges are then made using the Festool 20 mm (491072) router bit.  [big grin]

[attachimg=5]

[attachimg=6]

 

[Michael Kellough]

Don’t know which bushing is required by the Woodpecker jig but the Festool 20mm bit does work in the Festool OF 1100, and 1000, and 900 too.

Problem for me was that the holes made by the Festool bit were a little bigger than 20mm and most all dogs are under 20mm, since the holes in MFTs are too.

 

[Jiggy Joiner]

[member=44099]Cheese[/member] Thanks, I had to change the avatar, as it was causing unrest in the grand kid camp (favouritism)  [doh]

Your test showed more movement than I imagined, I know there will be some but, that's an eye opener. I suppose it could also work the other way round. Like some that have had the misfortune of the slop or play in their Parff sticks, yet test cuts showed them to be square?

I wonder if, and how much play there might be with a CNC?

 

[Papas Woodshop]

Is MDF the best material for making a table like the festool MFT table? Oner picture on the thread looks like melamine covered MDF.
Thanks
Mike
Papa's Workshop

 

[Cheese]

Don’t know which bushing is required by the Woodpecker jig but the Festool 20mm bit does work in the Festool OF 1100, and 1000, and 900 too.

Woodpeckers uses 2 different proprietary bushings along with a 1/2" Ø router bit to produce either 20 mm or 3/4" Ø holes. So while the Festool 20 mm bit will fit a 1010 router, the Woodpeckers hole boring jig system is centered around using a 1400 router, or equivalent that will accept 1/2" Ø bits.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Don’t know which bushing is required by the Woodpecker jig but the Festool 20mm bit does work in the Festool OF 1100, and 1000, and 900 too.

Woodpeckers uses 2 different proprietary bushings along with a 1/2" Ø router bit to produce either 20 mm or 3/4" Ø holes. So while the Festool 20 mm bit will fit a 1010 router, the Woodpeckers hole boring jig system is centered around using a 1400 router, or equivalent that will accept 1/2" Ø bits.

Does the Festool 20mm bit work with the Woodpecker bushing? Maybe that’s what you ended up using and I didn’t read carefully enough.

 

[Cheese]

Does the Festool 20mm bit work with the Woodpecker bushing? Maybe that’s what you ended up using and I didn’t read carefully enough.

It works wonderfully...it's just that you need to make a bushing for the Woodpeckers bushing.  [eek]

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

Personally, I'm surprised that they decided to release it as a regular part of their product line. In my mind it's still in the development stage and should be offered only to experimenters. It's not a very elegant solution to produce either 20 mm Ø or 3/4” Ø holes.  [crying]  [crying]

 

[Bob D.]

Cheese you're making a straight plunge but that doesn't take the movement of the bushing guide plate snapped into the base of the 1400. That potential movement is still there,, and even though you are now not applying lateral force to it there is still the possibility that it can (or WILL) move when withdrawn and placed in the next hole in the template.

It seems to me that another brand plunge router (PC690/890, Milwaukee, DeWalt, you name it) that has a fixed base and uses PC style bushings would be a better choice along with your adapter bushing to eliminate any lateral movement.

I have a OF1400, and at least 6  other routers. But after seeing what you have shown us all with your tests I will never rely on the OF1400 for accurate guide bushing work.

 

[Cheese]

I have a OF1400, and at least 6  other routers. But after seeing what you have shown us all with your tests I will never rely on the OF1400 for accurate guide bushing work.

I agree 100% Bob... [thumbs up]  That's the reason I rely on the 1010 for all of my guide bushing work. Sometimes when you go down one of these rabbit holes it's a good practice to just take a breath and think for a minute. Note to self, I really should have fabricated a guide bushing adaptor for the 1010 instead.  [doh]

However on a larger scale, had I known what I know now, I'd have purchased the LR 32 system instead as I already have a holey rail. I would take the $190 for the jig, $60 for the Whiteside 1/2" bit, and $70 for the Festool 20 mm bit and apply that to the cost of the LR 32 instead. I'd then have a piece of kit that was more than just a one-pony show.

I exchanged several emails and photos with Ed from Woodpeckers and he confirmed my results. It was in one of these exchanges that he stated that Woodpeckers was recommending the jig for hold down purposes only...not to be used for precision alignment or cutting.  [eek]

 

[rylim]

I'm planning to get the hole boring jig from Woodpecker and which one do you guys recommend? Metric or standard?

 

[Grev]

I'm planning to get the hole boring jig from Woodpecker and which one do you guys recommend? Metric or standard?

It's really your preference, however, I think there are more options for 20mm bench dogs and the Woodpecker MFT square (which I highly recommend) is designed around the 96mm hole pattern and 20mm holes.

 

[acer66]

I am going to try this=642s but with the Bosch router adapter plate.