MFT Tops CNC machined

[brucebo]

I'm having a local CNC shop machine a new bench top for me (3/4" MDF) with the Festool standard 20mm holes spaced 96mm on center.  My top will be about 60" x 84".  That's the size of FOUR MFT/3 tops.  I'm also thinking of having the shop machine (20mm holes) [eek] some birch plywood for use as permanent or removable legs for the top.

Since the CNC setup is the most expensive part, I was wondering if there was any interest in running more of these to try and get the price down? 

Send me a personal message if you are interested, and we can also look in to shipping.  I am in Metro Atlanta, GA if anyone is local.

 

[kris]

I'm interested. I come to the Austell area every day (Southeastern Freight Lines). I could put the top in one of my trailers going back to Louisiana, if you could get it to the terminal (for a nominal fee, of course). I've been wanting a top like this made as well. I would be interested in a standard 4x8 MDF top or whatever the normal sheet size is. Thanks!

 

[temoore55]

I just priced this out.  First off, make sure you ask for HDF not MDF.  The place I talked to needed to purchase 2- 20mm boring bits that they were charging me for.  They also were charging me for set up time, machine time, and reset time. They quoted $500 for 2 4x8 tops.  Too rich for me.  I'm going to do it myself with the LR32 holey rail.

 

[Samo]

Some guys are just to busy to give fair pricing.

My local CNC guy is a cabinet maker who is still pissed at me for loosing a couple of projects that I had him quote.

Check out this thread for an example of a small batch CNC price.

http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-jigs-tool-enhancements/mfslab-portable-work-table/

 

[brucebo]

Thanks for the input.  It appears my 5' x 7' top was not such a good idea.  Plan 1.1 will be MFT/3 tops for around $100, less if picked up in Alpharetta GA, and 36" x 60" tops (about the size of 2 MFT/3's) for about $150.  Again, probably a little less if picked up. 

Please jump in if anybody is interested.  Just PM me with what you expect you'll want and I'll get back with actual pricing (incl. shipping) when I have a count and confirmed pricing from the CNC machinist..  I'm hoping to have a firm count by the end of December and have the CNC work done in January with pick ups and deliveries in mid to late Jan.  I will also post this under the classified section.

Thanks,
Bruce

 

[sylthecru]

Do you have price of the CNC setup? Locally here the cabinet shop wanted about 200 just for the setup.

I am willing to have a few pieces made if the cost is not to high, I live in NC and the drive down is not so bad.

 

[weekendwarrior]

What level of effort is involved with setting up a CNC?  Is this a one-time programming effort that can be reloaded in the future if you want another piece cut?

 

[brucebo]

Ok, well this has been a bigger project than anticipated, but I think it is under control now.

The tops will be ready to ship or pick up by January 15th, 2015.

Sizes worked out to:
    MFT/3 standard (1102mmx718mm or 28.268"x43.386")
    30" x 52" (29.900" x 52.300") meant for custom portable/fixed work stations, table saw extensions/outfeed table, etc.

Pricing for pre-paid orders placed now works out to:

  Local Pickup in Alpharetta GA (Atlanta Metro area) -
      MFT/3 tops $85.00 + GA sales tax of $6.38 = $91.38 each --- later $95 +
      30" x 52" tops $100 + tax of $7.50 = $107.50 each  ---  later $110 +

  Shipped in U.S. but outside of GA - NO SALES TAX
    MFT/3 tops $85.00 + actual shipping costs    ---  later $95 +
    30" x 52" tops $100 + actual shipping costs  ---  later $110 +

EVEN IF YOU HAVE PREVIOUSLY PM'd ME, PLS. SEND ANOTHER PM with your desired # of tops of each type, Full name & shipping address, PayPal email address.  I will respond confirming your total, providing the PayPal address to pay for your top, and providing my home address for those who will be picking up.  I am a newer member on this forum and understand if anyone has concerns about sending payment (as I did when I recently purchased something here).  Please let me know if there is something I can do to address your concerns (short of posting my personal info on the blog).  You can PM me and I'll give you my cell# or whatever works for you.
 
  Please understand, but per "The Boss"  (bless her soul), THE RISK & EXPENSE OF "FLOATING" THE COSTS TO PRODUCE THESE will force me to INCREASE THE PRICE BY $10.00 for anyone who wants a top but does not have thier payment in on Jan. 5th

  I may come out ahrad, or I may loose $ here.  I am trying to strike a fair balance.

Thanks & Merry Christmas,
Bruce

"pre-paid" means PayPal friends & family payment received by January 5th, 2015.
"actual shipping costs" means whatever UPS or Fedex charges to ship your top(s) to you--I plan to use cardboard I have on hand (used) to safely pack these, but may need to add for packing materials on later orders.  Anyone with their own UPS or FEDX account is free to pay for their shipping on their own account in order to get whatever discount the shipper may provide them.

 

[Wareagle Todd]

Bruce check your private messages.

Thanks
Todd

 

[ademarzi]

I have sent several PMs about an order, but I have not received an answer yet.
Do you still have slabs for sale?

I'm sending a copy of one of my prior PMs.

"I'd like to order one of each. If you could send me the actual sizes of each, where to send my payment to, ad turn around time I'd appreciate it very much thanks.

Alvaro.

My address is:

5152 Engle Road
Carmichael, CA. 95608

916.834.2474"
If anything at least call me.

 

[Cheese]

[member=33362]Zorro Gris[/member]
I don't want to infringe on anyones livelihood, but if you're having issues with ordering these, why not source them locally. The shipping charges have to be killer from Georgia to California. They're large, heavy and clumsy.

Try
http://100kgarages.com/map_fabber.php?usertype=Fabber
Type in zip code and CNC router.

 

[Tayler_mann]

I am a CNC operatir and have owned many machines. The set up process for me to make my own top was about 5 minutes in an auto cad type program. Tha. To my machining software to right the g code than import that g code to my machine. I think from a blank 4' x 8' sheet on the computer to a real sheet of mdf with lots of 20 mm holes took a total of 2 hours. A $200 setup fee is ridiculous I would charge my normal rate and it would be about $65.00 to set it up and about $100 for a 4' x 8'.

People tend to realize they have a cool machine and can bend you over a barrel sideways. Tell them how it is and say it should take you no more than two hours total for 1 4' x 8' sheet. If it takes you longer not my problem you just have a cheap machine and a cheap machinist. Do not pay over $150 for one 4' x 8' sheet including setup fees. I'll send you a file for much

 

[joinercp]

£80 - £100 per hour required to make it worthwhile. We produced a custom size MFT top 2200*1100 for our own workbench it took 1.5hrs for initial programming and entering new drill bit into tool database. I wouldn't setup my machine for outside work for a couple of MFT tops just doesn't make commercial sense

 

[nickao]

What software can it possibly take 1.5 hours to set up programming an MFT  for cnc.

I just timed myself, it took 2 min 40 seconds to draw it up and spit out the G code for a top.

People tend to charge by the hour for machine use. I don't and never bought  that way of pricing and personally don't believe in it, but shops do charge that way.

A 4x8 sheet takes 1 hour 8 minutes to cut a full 4x8 sheet using a 1/2 bit for 20mm holes. So on a smaller machine without a spindle maybe 2 hours or so. I did a quick reference in inches, but with the exact dimension holes and spacing would go even quicker as my sample ended up with more holes and is aprox. At 200IPM it takes 37 minutes to cut the top so a pro shop can most likely kick these out in 30 minutes. If the MFT holes are 19.8 or 19.9 mm it would go a bit faster as well.

At 40.00 an hour machine time that's the cost of the mdf plus 40.00.

Actually after a few minutes of playing I got the tool paths  to cut in 29 minutes on my full size machine at 200IPM. A pro shop may be able to cut at 600IPM. Still,  the over all cut time wouldn't be 3 times faster becasue of that, but definitely a few minutes faster.

 

[Tayler_mann]

What software can it possibly take 1.5 hours to set up programming an MFT  for cnc.

I just timed myself, it took 2 min 40 seconds to draw it up and spit out the G code for a top.

People tend to charge by the hour for machine use. I don't and never bought  that way of pricing and personally don't believe in it, but shops do charge that way.

A 4x8 sheet takes 1 hour 8 minutes to cut a full 4x8 sheet using a 1/2 bit for 20mm holes. So on a smaller machine without a spindle maybe 2 hours or so. I did a quick reference in inches, but with the exact dimension holes and spacing would go even quicker as my sample ended up with more holes and is aprox. At 200IPM it takes 37 minutes to cut the top so a pro shop can most likely kick these out in 30 minutes. If the MFT holes are 19.8 or 19.9 mm it would go a bit faster as well.

At 40.00 an hour machine time that's the cost of the mdf plus 40.00.

Actually after a few minutes of playing I got the tool paths  to cut in 29 minutes on my full size machine at 200IPM. A pro shop may be able to cut at 600IPM. Still,  the over all cut time wouldn't be 3 times faster becasue of that, but definitely a few minutes faster.

I agree completely with you as stated above. People think they are a god when they get a CNC but truly just another guy who thinks he is a machinist. What type of machine do you have to cut at 600IPM? Mine does the same and is possibly one of the few I have ever seen under 100k.

 

[joinercp]

What software can it possibly take 1.5 hours to set up programming an MFT  for cnc.

I just timed myself, it took 2 min 40 seconds to draw it up and spit out the G code for a top.

People tend to charge by the hour for machine use. I don't and never bought  that way of pricing and personally don't believe in it, but shops do charge that way.

A 4x8 sheet takes 1 hour 8 minutes to cut a full 4x8 sheet using a 1/2 bit for 20mm holes. So on a smaller machine without a spindle maybe 2 hours or so. I did a quick reference in inches, but with the exact dimension holes and spacing would go even quicker as my sample ended up with more holes and is aprox. At 200IPM it takes 37 minutes to cut the top so a pro shop can most likely kick these out in 30 minutes. If the MFT holes are 19.8 or 19.9 mm it would go a bit faster as well.

At 40.00 an hour machine time that's the cost of the mdf plus 40.00.

Actually after a few minutes of playing I got the tool paths  to cut in 29 minutes on my full size machine at 200IPM. A pro shop may be able to cut at 600IPM. Still,  the over all cut time wouldn't be 3 times faster becasue of that, but definitely a few minutes faster.

Programmed using woodwop
Exact diameter drill bit digitally measured and entered into tool database
Vacuum pods positioned
Quick test run
Actual production of mdf
Time : 1.5hrs

I have 17 years CNC experience on SCM, Weeke, Hemag and Homag machines. The first run of any new programme or new tool should never be rushed and careful pre checks are necessary to avoid catastrophic errors. 

 

[Tayler_mann]

What software can it possibly take 1.5 hours to set up programming an MFT  for cnc.

I just timed myself, it took 2 min 40 seconds to draw it up and spit out the G code for a top.

People tend to charge by the hour for machine use. I don't and never bought  that way of pricing and personally don't believe in it, but shops do charge that way.

A 4x8 sheet takes 1 hour 8 minutes to cut a full 4x8 sheet using a 1/2 bit for 20mm holes. So on a smaller machine without a spindle maybe 2 hours or so. I did a quick reference in inches, but with the exact dimension holes and spacing would go even quicker as my sample ended up with more holes and is aprox. At 200IPM it takes 37 minutes to cut the top so a pro shop can most likely kick these out in 30 minutes. If the MFT holes are 19.8 or 19.9 mm it would go a bit faster as well.

At 40.00 an hour machine time that's the cost of the mdf plus 40.00.

Actually after a few minutes of playing I got the tool paths  to cut in 29 minutes on my full size machine at 200IPM. A pro shop may be able to cut at 600IPM. Still,  the over all cut time wouldn't be 3 times faster becasue of that, but definitely a few minutes faster.

Programmed using woodwop
Exact diameter drill bit digitally measured and entered into tool database
Vacuum pods positioned
Quick test run
Actual production of mdf
Time : 1.5hrs

I have 17 years CNC experience on SCM, Weeke, Hemag and Homag machines. The first run of any new programme or new tool should never be rushed and careful pre checks are necessary to avoid catastrophic errors.

I have been machining since I was 16 so it gives me exactly 10 years. I own two ULS 60 and 100 watt lasers, small rotary engraver, Oce flatbed printer/cutter and a Computerized Cutter XPS spindle CNC. Definitely missed the fact you are in he UK. I have only heard of a few of those machines. I use a lot of solid works platform for any 3D applications. For simple drawings like profiling fluting or pockets i like to use Corel draw. To export and make the the tool path I'm a fan of Vcarve Pro. I know a lot of people hate on it but its so simple than some of the 90's platforms. The vector editing and reactions it had to the 3d models is extremely simple. Also, I really like the tool database.

Back to the point. When I make my 4 x 8 Mft tops I use a 1/4" bit (i couldn't find anything right on 20 mm) and route the from the inside. I take 1/4" at a time at 400 IPM and on the last pass slow it down to 100 and take .01 inch allowance on the last pass to clean the holes. It makes a dead but 20 mm hole and I can do the entire board in about 1 hour or almost less.

Where did you eat the 1/2" bit that bores exactly a 20mm home? I looked every where and only found Forster bit, which of course, wouldn't work on my spindle I don't think spinning at 19,000 rpm. I thought of using a peck drilling path and bore 1/8 - 1/4" at a time to clear the hole to minimize burning and dulling of the carbide.

Let me know I would offer to do 4 x 8 tops and ship them everywhere for $100 if I could figure that out. Buyer would pay shipping of course. I feel it would cost an arm and leg though. However it could be designed in 30" increments and shipped UPS.  [big grin]

 

[nickao]

The 1/2" bit doesn't eat it in one hole. It doesn't have to.

A 1/2"(12.5mm) bit using a pocket tool path is all I entered. I am not doing a drill peck operation. It's a pocket tool path using a 1/2" bit. Just like you are using the .25 bit, the .5" bit works the same way. It just hogs it out much faster than a .25 bit. With your machines you should be able to blast them out right quick. I dont see enough need, or opportunity to make much money on selling them though. But doing people a favor maybe. Or self use of course.

I used Vectric Aspire. Vcarve will produce the same tool paths so will Cut 2D.

I did another two real quick rough cut files with a 19.8mm hole (I rounded to .78in holes) using a .5in bit and a second choice using a .25 bit. The .25 bit takes 2 hours, the .5in bit take 31 minutes, both at 200IPM. I set the material to 3/4"  cutting a pocket tool path to .755 deep(which goes through the material). Of course there are many ways(tool paths) to accomplish the task. I find the vectric software the fastest  for me to make files with. Aspire is more for bas relief, but since it's based on Vcarve it works for the simpler tasks very well. I called the separate files "Pocket 1"(.5in bit) and"Pocket 2"(.25in bit).

In the real world the .5in bit is most likely .742 and the .25 in bit .245 so before I start I always mic the bits and enter the real bit values in the software. I think I would run these at 100IPM on my DIY machine, that would only add about 20% to the times at most since the rapid distance is so short. I am sure my buddies on the CNC forum would blast them out at 400IPM.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

 

[Tayler_mann]

The 1/2" bit doesn't eat it in one hole. It doesn't have to.

A 1/2"(12.5mm) bit using a pocket tool path is all I entered. I am not doing a drill peck operation. It's a pocket tool path using a 1/2" bit. Just like you are using the .25 bit, the .5" bit works the same way. It just hogs it out much faster than a .25 bit. With your machines you should be able to blast them out right quick. I dont see enough need, or opportunity to make much money on selling them though. But doing people a favor maybe. Or self use of course.

I used Vectric Aspire. Vcarve will produce the same tool paths so will Cut 2D.

I did another two real quick rough cut files with a 19.8mm hole (I rounded to .78in holes) using a .5in bit and a second choice using a .25 bit. The .25 bit takes 2 hours, the .5in bit take 31 minutes, both at 200IPM. I set the material to 3/4"  cutting a pocket tool path to .755 deep(which goes through the material). Of course there are many ways(tool paths) to accomplish the task. I find the vectric software the fastest  for me to make files with. Aspire is more for bas relief, but since it's based on Vcarve it works for the simpler tasks very well. I called the separate files "Pocket 1"(.5in bit) and"Pocket 2"(.25in bit).

In the real world the .5in bit is most likely .742 and the .25 in bit .245 so before I start I always mic the bits and enter the real bit values in the software. I think I would run these at 100IPM on my DIY machine, that would only add about 20% to the times at most since the rapid distance is so short. I am sure my buddies on the CNC forum would blast them out at 400IPM.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

I'm curious why you have to do a pocket path? I'm not trying to contradict you at all. I am just curious why use he pocket paths raster path to remove the material versus a simple 2d profile path? Does it make a cleaner hole? I understand the 1/2" not doing it in one pass I am wandering where can a person get a hold of a 20 mm CNC bit of some kind, for example, a forstner designed to spin at 19,000 not 12,000. You can totally push a 1/2" bit to 400 IPM however you wil never get that with your accelerations set to a standard that insures accuracy. If you push your acceleration to you max your motors lose power. My machine has two motors on the X axis running simultaneously on two sets of rails that accept gears from each motor. On a DIY machine with lead screws I guess it might be fine but what I found that with as small as 20 mm hole is my machine could only achieve something around a few hundred IPM.  Where as if I could smoke a hole in only a Z value in the code I could actually run my machine as fast as it could go. Does this make any sense? I have issues explaining myself without lots of in personal visual aids. I'm linguistically challenged when it comes to explanations such as these.

Also, if you buy high quality CNC bits they are insured to be accurate to the .001". Also you may be getting deflection in your bit if it is cheap, spinning faster than it should, or cutting more than it should at one time. Also a thing to pay attention to is a clean collet. I clean mine at every job and or tool change. Run out is a machinist weakest point that is easily avoidable. If my machine is programmed to cut a 20 mm hole with a .25" bit it cuts a 20 mm hole Perfect to my caliper that is accurate to he .001.

 

[nickao]

No it doesn't need to be a pocket path at all. I was just seeing how fast I could make the files. Its one click of the mouse  to make it an offset line cut.

An inside the line cut would actually be a bit faster(virtually nothing) with the .5in bit and a whole lot faster with the .25 bit. With the .25 bit an inside the line tool path cuts the time from 2 hours to 50 min verse a pocket tool path at the same 200 IPM.

I never really get any noticeable deflection in any of my bits because I only cut at speeds that they can handle. My work actually involves very small .0625 bits that I use 90% of the time. I can only go about 70IPM max with those, many times only 40 to 50 IPM. I only cut wood so .003 precision is plenty for wood inlay.