MFT3 table newbie

[Out of Square]

HI everyone,
I have recently purchased the newest MFT3 table with the fence, protractor, rail and all the goodies that come with it. What is the secrets to getting a square cut?
Here is what I have done so far.
1. purchased MFT Aligned Guide Rail Support Upgrade Kit. From TSO
2 purchased RAB ( rail alignment blocks) from Etsy supplier.
3. have a woodpeckers 1282 SS square to verify rail square to fence.
I already have the TS55 saw and the Festool CT26 dust collector.
When I set everything up according to all the instructions I am not able to get a square cut to save my life..
I have tried almost everything ( spent almost 8 solid hours,, I don't give up easily) and cannot get a square cut.
Should I trash the fence rail that comes with it and go with something like a dog style fence?

 

[woodferret]

I have a GRS-16 PE attached to the rail flip.  Makes for easy-on easy-off, plus it's always square.  I already have the drop-in parallel guides as well so that's basically my 'fence stops'.

All that said, I wouldn't rush out to buy more.... before verifying your 1080 is straight.

 

[Lincoln]

I also have the mft3 and TSO alignment set up - no problem at all, getting square cuts. The stock fence isn't amazing and I'll probably replace it one day - but it's perfectly adequate.
From memory, I set the fence up first then squared the guide rail to it, being careful when setting the 'pin' on the user side of the table. You should be able to lift and drop the rail without the pin catching. Then, I adjusted the fence a fraction, to fine tune the squareness. With everything firmly tightened, it should hold square.
I don't use the '5 cut method', I prefer to cut two panels using the flag stops so they're identical. I make sure I mark my first cut edge on each piece and cut them both the same way. Then I place them face to face - you'll quickly see how square your set up is.
One possible reason for out of square is not holding the workpieces firmly enough when cutting and the saw can drag the panel slightly into the blade.

 

[mino]

First, get a reference square.

Without a reference square, you have no way to check for squareness of the setup before a cut. Once you have a reference square, it becomes straightforward to check which part of your setup is out.

If in US, where reasonable precision engineer's squares are an unobtainium, probably the best path is to get the TSO MTR-X.

If in Europe, just get a big-enough DIN class1 square. Ideally with about 250-300 mm short arm length.

Also, best if you can update your country in profile, tricky to advise when one can be living in the mountains of Cambodia or sitting next to Wendlingen.

 

[tsmi243]

First things first- are you getting a STRAIGHT cut?  Don't worry about the angle til that's sorted out.

Then, is it always off in the same direction, or does it randomly go left/right of square?  Check the saw itself, there are green cams that tighten it onto the rail.  Don't overdo it, just take up 99% of the slack there.

Third- manage expectations.  If you're feeling the edges with your thumb, with two panels stacked together, you're gonna be able to detect something like a tenth of a degree over a normal size cabinet panel.  Well beyond the point that it actually matters. 

If you're using a square, and holding it up to the light, same thing applies- you can "see" gaps that are literally a few thou of an inch.  Try to quantify what you're getting before you worry too much.

The factory fence setup sucks, but not because of accuracy.  Putting it on dogs just makes it easier to remove/replace.  That won't help your problem here. 

 

[Out of Square]

First, get a reference square.

Without a reference square, you have no way to check for squareness of the setup before a cut. Once you have a reference square, it becomes straightforward to check which part of your setup is out.

If in US, where reasonable precision engineer's squares are an unobtainium, probably the best path is to get the TSO MTR-X.

If in Europe, just get a big-enough DIN class1 square. Ideally with about 250-300 mm short arm length.

Also, best if you can update your country in profile, tricky to advise when one can be living in the mountains of Cambodia or sitting next to Wendlingen.

Yes I am in the USA, I updated my profile..
I am confused by what you mean a reference square? I have a woodpeckers 1282 SS square. Is that what you mean?
Thanks for replying.

 

[Out of Square]

First things first- are you getting a STRAIGHT cut?  Don't worry about the angle til that's sorted out.

Then, is it always off in the same direction, or does it randomly go left/right of square?  Check the saw itself, there are green cams that tighten it onto the rail.  Don't overdo it, just take up 99% of the slack there.

I am suspect of the saw itself. I have not used it much since I got it like 2 years ago. So it is basically new and barely used at all. I may have the cams out of adjustment as you suggest. What is the proper adjustment?

 

[Birdhunter]

I’ve never used the MFT protractor and I always get square cuts. I use 2 bench dogs  across the top of the MFT. I butt my square against the two dogs and my fence against the other leg of the square. If it doesn’t butt perfectly, I loosen the fence bolts and make the appropriate adjustment.

I place the top of the wood against the two dogs, drop the fence, and cut.

No protractor needed. The square is the Woodpecker framing square. I’ve got a bunch of bench dogs. As long as they fit snug, they work well.

I did add a SlopStop to my fence. It’s an inexpensive little tab that eliminates any side to side fence movement.

It is important to avoid applying and left right pressure on the saw while making the cut. Pressure should be directly down the line of the cut.

 

[Out of Square]

before verifying your 1080 is straight.

Hi are you referring to the 1080 rail? because I actually considered the rail is not straight.
I can get the back of the rail square to the fence and tighten everything down. make a cut, Not square. Is it possible the front of the rail where the (anti splinter strip is) is not straight?
But then again after the cut I check the rail and fence again and it is no longer square. It moved a little bit, somehow.
This thing is driving me crazy , which is taken any and all enjoyment out of using it.

 

[woodferret]

before verifying your 1080 is straight.

Hi are you referring to the 1080 rail? because I actually considered the rail is not straight.
I can get the back of the rail square to the fence and tighten everything down. make a cut, Not square. Is it possible the front of the rail where the (anti splinter strip is) is not straight?
But then again after the cut I check the rail and fence again and it is no longer square. It moved a little bit, somehow.
This thing is driving me crazy , which is taken any and all enjoyment out of using it.

Easiest foolproof way to check straight is to do a cut freehand on a board (clamped), then just flip the rail over the see if the splinter guard matches to the cut.  That rules out asymmetric bows.  Shift it over 30cm and see if it still matches.  That rules out symmetric bows.

Someone here once had a bend just right about the start.  Their square checks were merely checking against the first 'straight' section while the rest of the rail was bananas.

edit: pencil line works too if you're precious about your wood.  Although feeling with your finger nail is the most precise.

 

[mino]

Yes I am in the USA, I updated my profile..
I am confused by what you mean a reference square? I have a woodpeckers 1282 SS square. Is that what you mean?
Thanks for replying.

Reference as in "known good". That basically means a square which has explicitly specified its accuracy by the manufacturer or, better, was calibrated (metrology thing, not for your use case).

In US that is usually a Starret, but those are ridiculously overpriced:https://www.starrett.com/details?cat-no=3020-12

Do not trust that Woodpeckers you metioned, it is *not* a precise square, only an approximate one.

If you wanted a square from WP usable as a reference one, then this one seems to have the specs needed:https://www.woodpeck.com/woodpeckers-precision-woodworking-square-12-x-261.html

Reason I mention it is that without a know-good (aka reference) instrument, you are shooting blind basically when checking/setting your alignment.

What you want to check is that the fence and the back side of the rail are precisely square to each other. And without a known-good reference there is no way to reliably achieve that.

(Sure, one can make a 5-4-3 square from MDF or chipboard, but we are talking US, not Vietnam ..)

 

[Out of Square]

Yes I am in the USA, I updated my profile..
I am confused by what you mean a reference square? I have a woodpeckers 1282 SS square. Is that what you mean?
Thanks for replying.

If you wanted a square from WP usable as a reference one, then this one seems to have the specs needed:https://www.woodpeck.com/woodpeckers-precision-woodworking-square-12-x-261.html

That is the square I have except in stainless steel.https://www.woodpeck.com/woodpeckers-stainless-steel-squares.html

 

[mino]

That is the square I have except in stainless steel.https://www.woodpeck.com/woodpeckers-stainless-steel-squares.html

Fixed.

.. never seen a precision square with such a gazilion of markings (and holes) in it, assumed it is just another of those "good enough" ones. Perforations tend to affect precision, so is usually avoided if one seeks precise stuff .. guess WP figured it out.

 

[johnmpf]

I have gone through a dozen different squares over the last couple of years.  Every one of them a disappointment.  Not the Woodpecker.  It is dead on square and the edge is absolutely straight.  I should have bought one a long time ago.

 

[raylaray]

If you find yourself currently without a precision or woodpecker square, unsquare squares can be tested and made square with some persuasion (search for squaring or truing a framing square on youtube). Testing is simple..mark a line, flip the square over and redraw the same line - if they diverge, the square isn't. Calibrating is a tap or few with punch and hammer to expand the metal of the square in the appropriate direction.

 

[dashboardpws]

I know a small Colorado company that has devised various solutions to this problem.

 

[Chainring]

Best video I've seen so far for setup of the stock MFT components is from Greg Paolini. No nonsense and gets right to it.

Shoutout to Rob and his Dash-Board guide rail hinge, if you find yourself wanting a full replacement. No knock against the TSO upgrade (love their stuff), just haven't used it.

 

[Out of Square]

Best video I've seen so far for setup of the stock MFT components is from Greg Paolini. No nonsense and gets right to it.

Yeah I watched his video and still using his technique I am not able to get anywhere near close to square. I can see how people get frustrated dialing this table in, shouldn't be that difficult for the amount of money they are charging for this.
I watched all the videos on Youtube regarding the MFT3 table "set up" and nothing is working.
That is why I am wondering if I need to throw the miter and fence in the trash and start over with a dog fence system as others have done or eluded to in the videos.
I see where some even use the super dog and some kind of clip to hold the saw rail square to the dog holes.

 

[Out of Square]

Shoutout to Rob and his Dash-Board guide rail hinge, if you find yourself wanting a full replacement. No knock against the TSO upgrade (love their stuff), just haven't used it.

Yes I am aware of the Dash-board replacement hinge system for the MFT3 table but with everything (time and money) I have invested so far I am almost at a new cabinet saw price..
I will admit this has been a huge disappointment from the ease of set up perspective.
I love Festool products but this one (MFT3) I am not too sure about.
I don't want to keep spending money to try to get this thing to work correctly as I have already bought the TSO rail alignment upgrade kit and the RAB blocks along with spending hours trying to get a square cut.
I am not new to wood working just the MFT3 set up I question all the hype put forth into this product.
I kind of feel like I have been duped.....

 

[squall_line]

If you're square before you tighten everything, then you may be over-tightening it.

Or if you're square until you drop the rail on the front tab, then the front is out of alignment.

I have a 1282 SS and an MFT3 and have been able to get square cuts myself.

Your best bet at this point may be finding another member who is close by to stop over and look at your setup and technique and offer advice.