MFT3 table newbie

[MikeGE]

I don't have the MFT/3 system, as I made my own large table to suit my needs using Rob's Dash-Board guide rail hinge.  During my research prior to making my "make or buy" decision, I read and watched many reviews of the MFT/3 system.  The common theme seemed to be there is no guarantee that the 20mm hole grid is accurate and should be used for clamping and not alignment.

All of the videos I watched used the crosscut fence and miter gauge attached to the edge rail as the reference for alignment of the guide rail.  I don't recall any videos using the dog holes as the point of reference.  I think you must pick one and not both, so if you use the dog holes as a reference for the guide rail, then you must/should use the dog holes as the attachment method for the crosscut fence and hope the hole grid is accurate.

 

[tsmi243]

I may have the cams out of adjustment as you suggest. What is the proper adjustment?

I don't know if there's a proper way, but the important concept is that one side of the groove in the saw is non-adjustable- so that's the side you want to keep in contact with the rib on the track.  So the cams are on the opposite side, allowing you to open/close the slot to the size that works/feels right to you.  I just dial them in until the friction feels right. 

If you've ever dealt with a table saw miter bar that rattles around in the slot, it's the same thing.  On the table saw, you can just push the jig over to one side of the slot, so it runs in a straight line.  On the track saw, that's less realistic, so you wanna make the cams do it for you. 

1. Have you done the 5-cut method?  If you can, it'll tell you exactly HOW far out you are.  Could be there's nothing wrong with it still.

2. Is the front peg a good fit in the bottom of the rail?  Any side to side play there?  Look up a "slop stop" for a pic of what I'm asking

3. If you take consecutive slices off of a scrap panel, are the cuts parallel to each other?  In other words, cut a bunch of chopsticks from a piece of plywood, without rotating the plywood between cuts.  Cut, slide, cut, slide.  You can eyeball the sizes, it doesn't matter if they all match.  The test we want here, is to measure the diameter of a chopstick at both ends.  Is it tapered?  Do they all taper, or just some of them?  Is the taper enough to worry about?

 

[Michael Kellough]

Check these things

Is the fence straight?
Are you able to lock it down without it moving?

Is the rail straight?

Is the square accurate?

Are you setting the fence square to the rail when the rail is at the height it will be used?
Changing the height of the rail can alter the angular position slightly.
You might need to get/make a taller/thicker square.

Is the toe correct on the saw?

Is the length of the cut sufficient to tell whether the saw or fence/rail is faulty?

When you are sure the saw is setup correctly, use the 5 cut method to make a large square from the thickest plywood you have and carefully add wood to the rail side to increase the height so the new square can be used to set the rail square for thicker stock.

 

[Out of Square]

Your best bet at this point may be finding another member who is close by to stop over and look at your setup and technique and offer advice.

Good advice, Anyone in North West Ohio that can come on down and help me out?

 

[Out of Square]

Check these things

Is the fence straight?

Are you able to lock it down without it moving?

Is the rail straight? 

Is the square accurate?

Is the toe correct on the saw?

Is the fence straight?  It is the one that cane with the MFT3 table so from what I can tell--yes

Is the rail straight?  The back seams to be able to be square to the fence but I don't know about the front where the splinter guard is. Is it possible that is not straight?

Is the square accurate?  Yes it is a woodpeckers 1282.. and I did the test to check it is square.

Is the toe correct on the saw?  I think so, I haven't done anything to it out of the box after purchasing it.

 

[Michael Kellough]

What are the dimensions of the 1282?

Which part do you put against the rail?
Do you change the elevation of the rail after squaring?

To really get the relationship square you have to do the 5 cut routine. A “square” just provides a good start. Once you have managed to get a cut that is extremely close to 90 degrees (it will be closer than any square you can afford) you should keep that piece, label it, and use it to set the fence in the future.

The common “test for a square” only tests the inside angle.
When setting the fence to the rail you are using the outside angle. Should be the same but…

Did you change the location of the rail fitting stops? (The small oblong nuts that slide in the frame)
New owners often move the front nut (I did) because the rail has to be sprung to fit over the front pin.
That is a mistake (to move it). It is designed to be sprung so the rail stays in the same place while the running the saw along the rail.

Some people don’t like this design (the way the rail fits over the pin) and have figured out other ways to park the front of the rail. Some people want the rail to be perfectly parallel the dog holes even thought the grid isn’t perfect. In most setups the rail stays in the same location and there is only one kerf in the table.

If the back of the rail is straight then the rail is probably good but the only part that matters is the raised spine that guides the saw. The splinter guard side doesn’t count in guiding the saw.

 

[Out of Square]

What are the dimensions of the 1282?

Which part do you put against the rail?
Do you change the elevation of the rail after squaring?

To really get the relationship square you have to do the 5 cut routine. A “square” just provides a good start. Once you have managed to get a cut that is extremely close to 90 degrees (it will be closer than any square you can afford) you should keep that piece, label it, and use it to set the fence in the future.

The common “test for a square” only tests the inside angle.
When setting the fence to the rail you are using the outside angle. Should be the same but…

Did you change the location of the rail fitting stops? (The small oblong nuts that slide in the frame)
New owners often move the front nut (I did) because the rail has to be sprung to fit over the front pin.
That is a mistake (to move it). It is designed to be sprung so the rail stays in the same place while the running the saw along the rail.

Some people don’t like this design (the way the rail fits over the pin) and have figured out other ways to park the front of the rail. Some people want the rail to be perfectly parallel the dog holes even thought the grid isn’t perfect. In most setups the rail stays in the same location and there is only one kerf in the table.

If the back of the rail is straight then the rail is probably good but the only part that matters is the raised spine that guides the saw. The splinter guard side doesn’t count in guiding the saw.

WOW that is a lot of good information that does makes since to me, and I truly appreciate it.
Answer to your questions:
Did you change the location of the rail fitting stops?,, OMG-  I did and even removed them.. the reason is because the instructions for the TSO hinge upgrade wants you to loosen and move one of them to calibrate the jig.. Do I need to figure out how to re-install them?
What do I do now?
Which part do you put against the rail?  The red thick part (7 1/4 inch) against the rail and the slim steel part ( 12 ") against the fence.
What are the dimensions of the 1282? 7 1/4 inch by 12 inch.
Do you change the elevation of the rail after squaring? Yes because of the dimensions of my square I can only use it if the rail is lowered enough to hit the face of the square.
When setting the fence to the rail you are using the outside angle. Should be the same but…  Yes I put the square against the back side of the rail and the fence.

 

[Out of Square]

I want to thank everyone that has posted here to try and help me out on this problem.
I truly appreciate everyone's input and hopefully I will get this figured out soon.

 

[Lincoln]

The rail locating stops are for when you remove/reattach the guide rail hardware, shouldn't have any influence on initial squaring. I did the same - removed them to install the TSO kit, then reinstalled them.
Do you have the black plastic fence clamp attached to the table and fence?

 

[Out of Square]

The rail locating stops are for when you remove/reattach the guide rail hardware, shouldn't have any influence on initial squaring. I did the same - removed them to install the TSO kit, then reinstalled them.
Do you have the black plastic fence clamp attached to the table and fence?

Yes I do.

 

[Out of Square]

OK,,,I finally did the 5 cut test and here are my numbers ,, but I am lost as to the meaning of them
I used the RAB blocks (got from Esty vendor) off the dog holes to set up both the rail and fence.
I used about a 14X17 inch 18mm Baltic Burch ply scrap for the 5 cut test.

5th strip cut measurements in mm.
T=Top  (24.18mm)
B= bottom (24.04mm)
Length of T/B strip is 422 mm
T-B= (0.14mm)
Divided by 4 = .035mm
Divided by 422 mm= .0000829 mm
thickness of material = 18mm

Ok , Ok I am completely lost after that. 
Please help me understand the numbers. Is this good or bad ?????

Thank you so much for the help.
https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/festool-how-to/five-cut-method-on-mft3-explained/

 

[woodferret]

Is the rail straight? 

Is the rail straight?  The back seams to be able to be square to the fence but I don't know about the front where the splinter guard is. Is it possible that is not straight?

Your square is only 12" long.  It's probably lost in the noise, but please do a line test along the whole length of the rail to ensure the entire thing is straight.  Don't worry about 'square' yet. 

 

[Out of Square]

Okay - how do I do a line check?

I just posted numbers can you make any since out of them?

 

[woodferret]

Okay - how do I do a line check?

I just posted numbers can you make any since out of them?

Assuming your splinter guard is cut clean/true, just put it down somewhere, draw a line.  Rotate the track 180deg and see if that line is still on the splinter guard. 

edit: as for your numbers... did you mess up the units?  24.18mm wide strips?

 

[Out of Square]

The numbers are the width of the 5th strip that I cut.. just under an inch wide for my final cut. The length of the final cut was 422 mm.
So I got this from a link on the forum about how to do a 5 cut test on the MFT table. And put all the numbers in using there formula but I am lost after that.
So I took a piece of scrap Baltic Burch ply about 14 X 17 inches and did the test.
https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/festool-how-to/five-cut-method-on-mft3-explained/

 

[Lincoln]

Those numbers tell me that you're very close to square. How did you realise that you weren't square, to start with?

 

[tsmi243]

Those numbers tell me that you're very close to square. How did you realise that you weren't square, to start with?

The real question, right here.  ^^

 

[Out of Square]

Those numbers tell me that you're very close to square. How did you realise that you weren't square, to start with?

You say close to square but will I need to make an adjustment? In your opinion?

The reason I originally started this thread is when I made some drawer (false fronts) and used my known to be extremely accurate woodpeckers square they were way off and it was very upsetting to me. 3 sides were dead on but the fourth corner was off about 1/16 to 1/8th of an inch.

 

[Lincoln]

That sounds like there's another issue, not the MFT set up. Only one corner being out by that much doesn't really marry up with your 5 cut test. I suggested earlier, cut two panels using the flag stops, so that they are identical size and place them face to face - you'll quickly see how out of square your MFT is.

 

[Out of Square]

I agree, I will have to see what mistake I was making.
So out of curiosity I checked that 5th cut test strip again , only this time I placed it flat on my cast iron cabinet saw top and got even better numbers than before.

T = 24.00mm
B= 24.05mm
T-B= (-0.05mm)
Divided by 4 = .0125mm
Divided by 422 mm= .0000296 mm
thickness of material = 18mm
Length of T/B strip is 422 mm