Midcentury Renovation - in deep over my head

[sakurama]

So we bought this house almost a year ago after waiting over 6 months for our offer on the short sale to be approved. It's a long time to wait for your first house. The house had a beautiful design but looked like a clown threw up inside. All the original cedar was painted white, beams painted purple, walls moved randomly, horrible tile and worse paint. Because it was a  short sale and we got a good deal we thought we'd do some light remodeling before we moved in. That was over 10 months ago.

I'll show some shots of work done so far. If you want a more detailed look I posted a thread in Garage Journal where I've been posting updates from the beginning. The project started as a light remodel, maybe an ikea kitchen and some paint and became a gut to the studs, replumb, rewire and restore everything and then build all custom cabinets and closets... While I'm saving a huge amount of money and enjoying the process it's taking a lot longer than expected and that's creating stress within the family. Did I mention I'm living with my mother in law?

I had a little help with some of the demo - like jackhammering the raised slab that put a step in the floor - but for the most part I've done all of it myself. I did a stint of carpentry after college with my step dad where I learned a lot but mostly I'm unafraid of tackling things and I believe I can learn and do almost anything well. Along the way I hired a day laborer who's been working with me now for over 6 months. He's been tackling most of the menial tasks while I take on the more technical. I certainly couldn't have done it with out him.

Okay, some before/after shots of where we're at now. Here's the living room.

And looking back to the stairs/second floor.

Like I said, the Garage Journal thread really covers it blow by blow. My reason for posting here is that I'm getting into the stuff that's more difficult; cabinets and builtins. This is all new to me so I've probably got a lot of questions and would welcome suggestions. I've decided to do the whole house in the 32mm system. I test built one cabinet for the garage to get an idea of it and now I'm making 8 more. Here's my first one.

After that one cabinet I built the bases for the kitchen.

I don't feel confident enough to build the kitchen cabinets yet so I'm building more garage cabinets. This time I'm being more careful and deliberate and learning from the mistakes of the first cabinet.

I have a mill and lathe so I made a few bench dogs as I had trouble keeping my crosscuts square with the MFT. My solution was to use the dogs and square the fence to the dogs so I could keep using the stop - something you can't do with just dogs and something I really wanted with 8 cabinets. Since I have two MFTs I it occurred to me last night that I should use both angle parts on the same rail and that would give me a perfectly square fence. I think.

Still, I'm getting pretty good results but not perfect. My cuts are all within a millimeter or less but it seems like they should all be identical. Am I being too picky or just not consistent enough?

I'm doing three dominos to keep the cabinet aligned. I'm planning on doing pocket screws to pull them together - would two be okay, one between each domino? Should I double them up? Is it okay that they aren't near the edge? I can't put them in the back as I've got to put in a dado for the 1/2" back. I was hoping to do that with the MFK700 and two passes with a 10mm bit by just running it along the edge. I have an OF1400 but I don't have a 31/64th bit to cut it in one pass.

Anyway, I'll post some of my progress and I welcome your suggestions. If you have any questions feel free to ask away.

Gregor

 

[peter halle]

I spent some time surfing thru your thread on Garage Journal.  Beyond crazy cool!

Peter

 

[sakurama]

Thanks Peter!

I've watched your projects and posts for a long time now. I hope to learn a lot from any suggestions I get along the way from the members here. There's a lot of very talented people here on FOG and it's been a huge inspiration.

Gregor

 

[nclemmons]

Gregor

That is an amazing amount of work - your attention to detail is so apparent in the work.  And OCD is ok - we all have it in making things RIGHT.

Thanks for sharing the process.  Really enjoyed all 15 pages of the project.  And have loved you bringing back the mid-century design!

Really great work-

Now the cabinets!

neil

 

[rnt80]

Amazing and a pleasure to read through your thread on GJ.  Your persistence and dedication to detail is inspiring.  I'm looking forward to see the finished house.  Be sure to keep us posted.

 

[BUTTER]

It looks really great so far!  I'm from Portland, and first learned my trade there, too.

As far as cabinet construction methods go, it sounds like you are making things hard on yourself, honestly.

Unless you have exposed end panels, there is no reason to use pocketscrews - they will be less strong than 1-5/8" steel screws from the end.  Don't drill a screw into a plywood edge within two inches of its end.  Use 4 screws per side on a base cabinet , five if you feel like it.

Buy a $25 31/64" Whiteside bit if you want, or use a 1/2" bit, but do them with that OF1400.  Either way, securing the panel with a couple screws per edge will add rigidity to the box.  Also, save a ton of time and effort by setting up a quick router table + fence.

Are you using shop ply?  Have you considered pre-finished? (Way more durable for carcasses.)
I see you used the shop ply for your garage cabinet doors - use MDF with sequenced veneers if you want your kitchen doors to stay flat 5-10 years down the road.  You could also have them laid up on Medex for an extra 20-30$ per sheet.

I hope I don't sound harsh, just helpful.  Best of luck to you!

 

[sakurama]

As far as cabinet construction methods go, it sounds like you are making things hard on yourself, honestly.

I hope I don't sound harsh, just helpful.  Best of luck to you!

Not harsh, very helpful. It's why I posted here now, before I get into the "real" stuff. I know there's a lot I don't know and I want to learn.

I am planning on using prefinished maple ply for the house. I didn't think to just screw them together - do I need a special screw or are regular square drive wood screws fine? Confirmats?

Hadn't considered trying to make a router table so I'll look into that.

Many thanks. I have much to learn and appreciate the help.

Gregor

 

[sancho57]

You are making the cabinets alot harder then you need to, here is a method I use. Except I substitute the nail gun for dominos. I use 2 dominos for assembly. One on each side and 2 screws in the middle.

Joe has a complete series but this is the one for assembly. Hopes this helps. It will speed up assembly for you. Also just buy te doors, drawers and drawer fronts it will save you lots of time.

 

[RKA]

Gregor,
Very nice work!!!  I'm only part of the way through your GJ thread, but I love your spirit and desire to learn and do the very best that you can.  It's infectious and inspiring.  And if I could make a confession, at times I feel a bit bad for researching topics ad nauseam and not settling for good enough.  My wife and friends find it comical while I find it necessary.  Nice to see I'm not the only one who views things this way.  Keep adding to your GJ thread, I'm bookmarking it!
Raj

 

[sakurama]

Ha! If there was a forum for the OCD this might be it. Probably why I like it here.

Jobsworth: I watched almost all of Joe's videos and they're very good. I like the no nonsense way he approaches stuff. It very much reminds me of my step dad who did a great job but was all about just getting it done as fast and efficiently as possible. I do completely realize that I could be slamming the garage cabinets together really quickly to get them done but I'm also using them as a learning experience for doing the kitchen cabinets so I'm being a bit anal and overly meticulous. Partly because I'm learning and don't know yet where I can get away with compromises and partly because it's my nature.

I've done a lot of research on methods of construction and I chose to use the domino's because they really help with alignment and they're strong. The garage cabinets are going to be mounted high up and hold a lot of weight. I want to overbuild them so that they never rack, sag or collapse and won't have any trouble holding a few hundred pounds. I don't yet have the sense of how strong that is or what methods will get me there so that's the reason for this thread - to learn from others. You've convinced me to forgo the pocket screws which I like but find a bit fussy and slow. If there's no disadvantage to just screwing them I'll do that. They're going to butt up against each other in one big row so I could just use end caps to cover the screws if I wanted to - but it's the garage so I probably won't.

In watching a lot of videos from the Fine Homebuilding site I see people use screws and glue and then clamps to help square them. How much does the glue help? I've heard that it's stronger than the screws and so it was my intention to glue these. If using screws the clamps only purpose is to assist squaring them right?

Thanks guys. It's very nice to get the support and kudos from the GJ thread but here I expect criticism and suggestions because you guys are the pros. I know there are a lot of ways to skin a cat so I want to practice "best methods" and learn where I can make compromises as I go. I hate doing things half assed but I'm not opposed to finding quicker or easier ways because I'm an inherently lazy perfectionist - if that makes sense.

Gregor

 

[BUTTER]

No need for Confirmats - they are designed for mdf/pb cores, and are tough to do right by hand anyways.
Glue will be superfluous.
Do predrill properly for your screws, and save the pocketholes for exposed endpanels (or, use applied endpanels.)

 

[Vindingo]

Great thread over at Garage Journal.  I love these kinds of projects.  The work looks top notch. 

What material are you thinking for the kitchen cabinets?

Do predrill properly for your screws, and save the pocketholes for exposed endpanels (or, use applied endpanels.)

I'll second the pre-drilling. Even screws that claim you "don't have to" won't always sit flush in pre-finished maple.
I like GRK for screws.  SPAX torx are kind wobbly with festool torx bits and get annoying to use if you loose the bit SPAX gives you in the box. 

 

[tiralie]

Gregor:
Thanks for posting the link to your house renovation on the GJ site.
You and your assistant have done some really nice work. I think that railing and the tile with the epoxy grout looks amazing. The photo's look great and are a great promotion for that Sony RX1.
I love the light in the living dining room area.

I read that you have done your research (Overtime, Brice's and erock's threads) so your boxes/cabinets should turn out great.

What kind of finish were you thinking of putting on the garage and kitchen cabinets?

Do you have a design for the kitchen you can post? It would be fun to see what you are planning. Like a photo shoot, the best plans allow for the most imagination and improvisation.

There sure aren't a lot of cabinets in that kitchen, you sure your wife is ok with that [big grin].

Tim

 

[sakurama]

Thanks guys. I have a plan for the kitchen but I haven't really drawn it out yet. I'm beyond remedial in Sketchup so I just use paper and I have some travel coming up that will give me time to start to draw out the cabinets and make a cut list. Essentially it's going to be all drawers, three sizes stacked and I'm going to bevel the top lip instead of pulls. I'm going to use all prefinished maple for the boxes and then skin/face them in vertical walnut. Sort of like this:

Because I'm doing the whole house out of pocket and it's gotten a bit out of hand I need to find places to trim the costs and one is going to be the counters. I'm going to use solid core laminate and run the material down the wall and then waterfall it down the peninsula.

We're going with the Karran Edge sinks which are designed to be seamless to the formica and help with the "of a piece" look that the solid core gives. It should be a nice budget solution. I tell myself that formica is period.

So one thing I struggle with is consistency. I'm using two 1400 rails with the Parallel Guides and it seems that I always have an error of 1-2mm which sounds like not much but when that tolerance stacks it can make for some inconsistent panels. Tomorrow I'm going to bite the bullet and get a 106" holy rail that I hope will help with rip consistency. While I can get two rails straight after lifting it off and setting it down several times it starts to come out of true.

The other thing is of course cross cuts. I have the older MTF 1080 and since I have a lathe it's no big deal to make some dogs and they're great but it seems a shame to have to chose between the rails and the CNC top. It also seems strange that the top isn't registered and only held with four screws. Has anyone drilled and tapped the rails with low profile set screws that could press against the edge of the top that could be used to then register the rails to the top?

I registered my rail to my top and then used the dogs to make my crosscuts but, again, it seems like I'm getting a few panels that are out by 1-2mm sometimes I'll even get the odd one that's 2-3mm out.

Am I being unrealistic or just inconsistent? I did some woodworking 7 or 8 years ago when I had a garage for a very brief time but in the intervening time I've done exclusively metal work. I feel that working in thousandths has given me a better sense of control and precision so I'm looking for ways to perfect the system and get better results. I still have no room or desire for a table saw so I want to make the tools I have work perfectly. Thoughts?

Gregor

 

[duburban]

I'm sure you do this but just incase; make sure you always use the same side of the panel referenced against the fence. Like if you set the parallel guides for a rip use the side you referenced from as reference for the cross cut. I have the guides also but haven't used them enough to know where to look for error.

 

[Linbro]

Hello Gregor - Sounds like the rip cut has a bow/isn't straight, which obviously leaves an out of parallel piece and also introduces errors when crosscutting. The longer rail will help a lot - I don't think two joined rails will be satisfactory for the tolerances you're used to.
Also, sheets can have a fair bit of tension in them and when you rip them they can 'spring' a bit. If this is happening, the only way to avoid it is to rip your sheets oversize, then re-cut to finished size.
Great thread over at GJ, will be following that, and this one.
Lincoln.

 

[tiralie]

Hello Gregor - Sounds like the rip cut has a bow/isn't straight, which obviously leaves an out of parallel piece and also introduces errors when crosscutting. The longer rail will help a lot - I don't think two joined rails will be satisfactory for the tolerances you're used to.

Completely agree. I believe you have the TS 75 so I would get the 3000 rail. You will like it a lot better than using the two 1400. You will find that putting guide extensions on your guides will help you balance the 3000 rail much better than without.

Also, sheets can have a fair bit of tension in them and when you rip them they can 'spring' a bit. If this is happening, the only way to avoid it is to rip your sheets oversize, then re-cut to finished size.

Yes, the ripped panels probably sprung a little. I get around this by taking my first rip as close to the middle as possible. this usually relieves most of the tension in a board (plywood or melamine). I then cut about an 1/4" from the just cut edges of the two pieces and  then start using my guides from there.
If you haven't make sure your guides have been calibrated.

Thanks guys. I have a plan for the kitchen but I haven't really drawn it out yet. I'm beyond remedial in Sketchup so I just use paper and I have some travel coming up that will give me time to start to draw out the cabinets and make a cut list. Essentially it's going to be all drawers, three sizes stacked and I'm going to bevel the top lip instead of pulls. I'm going to use all prefinished maple for the boxes and then skin/face them in vertical walnut.

Hmmm, it may be easier for you to buy the panels with the walnut veneer applied and then have someone finish the inside for you rather than try to veneer those cabinets.

Because I'm doing the whole house out of pocket and it's gotten a bit out of hand I need to find places to trim the costs and one is going to be the counters. I'm going to use solid core laminate and run the material down the wall and then waterfall it down the peninsula.

Sounds good. You can always replace counter tops when funds permit.

The other thing is of course cross cuts. I have the older MTF 1080 and since I have a lathe it's no big deal to make some dogs and they're great but it seems a shame to have to chose between the rails and the CNC top. It also seems strange that the top isn't registered and only held with four screws. Has anyone drilled and tapped the rails with low profile set screws that could press against the edge of the top that could be used to then register the rails to the top?

I have a MFT/3 not a 1080 but I believe despite the the design differences they are to be used the same. It doesn't matter which surface you use to reference from as long as it is the only one and you are consistent. While the rail the saw runs on is attached to the outside rail of the MFT, I use dogs in the holes in the top as the reference and everything is squared from there. Because I rarely leave my MFT set up, I use the Woodpecker square 1281 to square the saw rail to the bevel rail. I notice you use a framing square to set up your MFT. A set square is easier and more accurate because the  thicker side allows you to register the guide rail with out introducing error trying to lift the framing square up to register with the side.
I hope that makes sense.

I registered my rail to my top and then used the dogs to make my crosscuts but, again, it seems like I'm getting a few panels that are out by 1-2mm sometimes I'll even get the odd one that's 2-3mm out.

The rail that attaches to the miter gauge flexes quite a bit so I always put some dogs behind them to make it more rigid. Unfinished plywood doesn't slide as much as finished ply or melamine so I sometimes use a quick clamp to hold that material in position while I cut.

Am I being unrealistic or just inconsistent?

It depends, I am not a good judge of "realistic". In some cases a couple millimeters is not as important or even seen, in others it will make a difference. Only you will be able to make that decision based on what you are trying to accomplish and experience.

I hope that helps.

Tim

 

[Mark]

One idea for your countertops is to create a butcher block of Appleply or Europly and keep the edges exposed. I also had the edge beveled back about 10º and while a subtle detail it had a functional aspect that scraps wouldn't fall from the formica edge and not drip on the exposed laminated face. Here are pictures of the kitchen I designed...

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1021-31st-Ave-E-Seattle-WA-98112/48956918_zpid/

Didn't have Karran sinks back then, but today I'd do it in a heartbeat. I did have some issues wrt the laminate coming off after a couple of years so if I do this again, I'll used Titebond rather than contact cement to glue the laminate to the substrate.

 

[rvieceli]

on the countertops....

I'm all for reducing those wish I could have done something else moments in stuff you have to touch and see several times a day. It also appears that the kitchen won't have acres of countertops.

Every body usually thinks of laminate as a cheaper alternative, but good quality laminate tops are not that cheap. So let's think outside the box for countertop options. There are other options that are less expensive than high end stone.

I have seen really nice tops made from wood butcher block, (it's what I have), from plate steel, from old slate blackboards, to bowling alley lanes and highway and street signs. I've also seen stainless or lighter gauge rolled steel bonded to an exposed edge plywood sub base that looked nice.

You are a very talented craftsman with a wide skill set. Consider bartering. Many folks are in the same position regarding funds, they can't justify or have the cash available to pay for services but a lot may be willing and able to trade you materials and/or service for something that you could do for them.

 

[amt]

You might want to investigate concrete countertops.  It might actually be cheaper than laminate if you do it yourself, and IMO look a lot better than laminate.