Mild criticism of tools

[Peter Durand]

I find it sad that a mild criticism of a tool's limitations is treated in a very defensive manner (closing to further comments, which were all polite by the way) by Festool. I would have thought that the Kapex depth limits would have be responded to by something like "point noted...we will forward this to the designers and see what improvements can be done". But that is just my way of looking at things.

 

[semenza]

The criticism of the tools is fine, and can be found in many threads on this forum. Festool watches this forum and indeed takes note of what is talked about. The problem with the depth limit on the Kapex is well noted in the thread in question and has been allowed to stand. The locking of that thread and the posts that were removed was due to the demonstration and suggestions of modification of the tool and potentially unsafe practices to overide the tools built in limits. It was not closed  due to the criticism of the tool as can still be seen I that thread.

No posts that had to do with the criticism of the tool were removed, only those that had to do with safety concerns.

SRSemenza FOG Moderator

 

[Iwood75]

I think Festool should have, at least, included the Kapex's depth limit adjustment range in their print and online product literature "specifications." Just as they do with maximum width and height of cut and maximum bevels, etc. Had I known, I may have made a different purchasing decision. Unfortunately, I didn't discover this shortcoming until day 31.

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

Just to offer an "official" reply from Festool on the matter...

When Festool took ownership of this forum, one of the guiding principles was to keep it open. By that I mean that members can express their feelings, positive or negative, about our products without censorship or retribution. Of course, we do have general guidelines that outline expected decorum, like no cursing, be polite, etc. just to keep the peace here on the forum.

There were posts removed in that thread that suggested a ways to override the mechanics of the Kapex's trenching setting. One of our forum guidelines, which is intended to keep anyone from getting hurt, is that members cannot discuss  or demonstrate using a tool in a method not prescribed by the manufacturer or outside of its intended use. We have members of varying levels of skill and tampering with safety controls or modifying the mechanical or electrical systems of a tool could result in personal injury or less importantly damage to the tool. I don't think any of us want that to happen.

That's why the post was removed. It had nothing to do with criticism. As an example, this thread exists and will not be modified or removed even though it is a criticism of Festool and its moderation of this site.

Hopefully, you'll better understand our position on the removal of the post even if you don't agree with it. It's about safety and best practices, not censorship.

Now, about the depth range for the trenching mode... I can tell you that Festool Germany is very attentive to the discussions that take place on this forum, even if they are not participants. Sometimes, feedback from our forum members results in changes to tool designs. Maybe it will in this case, maybe not. But we, Festool that is, appreciate the constructive criticism and suggestions to make our products even better.

Shane

 

[Kev]

As I think I mentioned on the other thread, my Hitachi was technically quite good in terms of depth stop ... but I do feel that trenching on an SCMS is a dangerous procedure at the best of times, regardless of brand or model of machine.

A depth set plunge saw or a router is much safer.

Typical trenching on an SCMS (tell me if you think I'm doing it wrong) involves a spinning blade, back and forward movement of the slider, moving of un-clamped timber and a hand working in close to the spinning blade (potentially feeding timber towards the blade - yes, another "No, No"). Running across a busy highway blindfolded could be a safer activity.

 

[Guilliaume woodworks]

@ Shane . I love fog and understand your stance. " members can not discuss or demonstrate using a tool Ina method not prescribed by manufacture or outside its intended  use" . I'm a little confused. Not to rock the boat,but I've seen or read many ways to modify or  abnormal uses of  tools not mentioned in literature supplied with tools. Those ideas,tips,or modifications are a main reason I participate on fog . Example is a aftermarket  accessory for a popular festool that requires user to use upside down. However, I do agree with the safety concerns regarding the kapex post that influenced the removal. Is removal of a post  based more on safety ? Can you clarify for us......seems to be grey area

 

[AlexThePalex]

I have never seen a thread or posts removed or closed because of criticism. All criticism is allowed as long as it's given in a polite manner. There is a lot of criticism to read here on the FOG.

As Shane said, only posts that could potentially lead to dangerous situations are removed. What is and what is not a dangerous modification is sometimes a bit foggy for the users, me included, but I guess it is not possible to make those rules 100% certain and the moderators have to make a judgement call sometimes.

 

[chrisrosenb]

I have never seen a thread or posts removed or closed because of criticism. All criticism is allowed as long as it's given in a polite manner. There is a lot of criticism to read here on the FOG.

You are kidding, right??????????????

I have seen many posts deleted.

I guess it is how someone defines open and safety concerns.  The definition on this forum for one is very narrow & the other is very broad.

 

[skids]

Makes sense to me...I have read enough criticism and praise of these tools to know that this forums credibility is legitimate. Everything I have learned here has been accurate, and helped me make decisions on how to purchase and use these tools. At the end of the day, thats what I want to get out of it. Criticism is important to me, otherwise this website turns into a marketing gimmick.  And although I have been part of criticisms, I agree it has to be constructive to make sure the dialogue isn't distracted and maintains a context that benefits us all. Once someone has an axe to grind, as true as it may be, it ruins the user experience for the others here.

I have yet to feel like I am being censored here on FOG, and thats one of the reason I come back. 

 

[Sparktrician]

Just to offer an "official" reply from Festool on the matter...

When Festool took ownership of this forum, one of the guiding principles was to keep it open. By that I mean that members can express their feelings, positive or negative, about our products without censorship or retribution. Of course, we do have general guidelines that outline expected decorum, like no cursing, be polite, etc. just to keep the peace here on the forum.

There were posts removed in that thread that suggested a ways to override the mechanics of the Kapex's trenching setting. One of our forum guidelines, which is intended to keep anyone from getting hurt, is that members cannot discuss  or demonstrate using a tool in a method not prescribed by the manufacturer or outside of its intended use. We have members of varying levels of skill and tampering with safety controls or modifying the mechanical or electrical systems of a tool could result in personal injury or less importantly damage to the tool. I don't think any of us want that to happen.

That's why the post was removed. It had nothing to do with criticism. As an example, this thread exists and will not be modified or removed even though it is a criticism of Festool and its moderation of this site.

Hopefully, you'll better understand our position on the removal of the post even if you don't agree with it. It's about safety and best practices, not censorship.

Now, about the depth range for the trenching mode... I can tell you that Festool Germany is very attentive to the discussions that take place on this forum, even if they are not participants. Sometimes, feedback from our forum members results in changes to tool designs. Maybe it will in this case, maybe not. But we, Festool that is, appreciate the constructive criticism and suggestions to make our products even better.

Shane

Shane,
    I'm working on a work-around for the CMS/OF2200 limitation using a UL-approved paddle switch rated for 35 amps (which is commonly available on Amazon) to replace the 13 amp switch that comes with the CMS-OF.  I'd planned to put photos on the FOG showing how it goes together on my own CMS.  Safety, adherence to sound electrical principles and code adherence are primary in my thinking.  Are you saying that this kind of information would be deleted? 

 

[AlexThePalex]

I have never seen a thread or posts removed or closed because of criticism. All criticism is allowed as long as it's given in a polite manner. There is a lot of criticism to read here on the FOG.

You are kidding, right??????????????

I have seen many posts deleted.

There have been plenty of deletions, sure. But where they because of criticism of Festool the company or its tools or because of other concerns?

I myself have never seen a post deleted because of criticism unless the poster was very impolite in the way he worded his criticism. And even those have been extremely rare. 

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

We have two members who are not employees of Festool that serve as moderators. This was another important step we made when taking ownership of the forum to provide transparency. They see everything that takes place on the forum, even the "behind the scenes" conversations about when moderation is needed. In fact, they do the vast majority of the moderation and that was the case with the Kapex thread in question.

To clarify what is permissible and what is not on the forum, please refer to the forum guidelines.

http://festoolownersgroup.com/forum-rules-guidelines-suggestions/fog-member-guidelines/

The very first one states "keep it legal and safe", and is the first one because it's the most important:

Keep it legal and safe.
As a user of this website, you are responsible for your own communications and for the consequences of their posting.  Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual.  To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual.  Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies.  Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website.  Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material.  Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk.  The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.

We reserve the right, in our sole discretion, to remove any content posted by a member that encourages unauthorized, unsafe or illegal activity.  The member posting the material may face a permanent ban as a result of posting material that violates the above-mentioned guidelines. 

Forum moderators and administrators may also edit any post or thread to include warnings and other information regarding the use of a tool in a method other than prescribed in its instruction manual. Forum members may not edit their post to remove these warnings. Doing so constitutes a breach of our forum guidelines, which may result in the removal of the post and/or permanent ban.

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

Shane,
    I'm working on a work-around for the CMS/OF2200 limitation using a UL-approved paddle switch rated for 35 amps (which is commonly available on Amazon) to replace the 13 amp switch that comes with the CMS-OF.  I'd planned to put photos on the FOG showing how it goes together on my own CMS.  Safety, adherence to sound electrical principles and code adherence are primary in my thinking.  Are you saying that this kind of information would be deleted? 

Willy, that would not be permissible. It's modifying a tool to do something that's explicitly stated is not allowed in the manual. That being using it with the OF 2200. I wasn't present when UL tested the CMS and I don't know if there were issues beyond the switch or not. For that reason, using another switch may or may not be deemed safe by the agency responsible for independently testing tools for safety. If you want to share that info on another forum or publicly on a website or blog, feel free to do so. But it can't be posted here or linked to from here.

On the other hand, if you want to provide me with information on the switch, I can share it with Germany and they can see if that's enough to make the OF 2200 compatible with the CMS and get it re-tested.

 

[Alan m]

Shane,
    I'm working on a work-around for the CMS/OF2200 limitation using a UL-approved paddle switch rated for 35 amps (which is commonly available on Amazon) to replace the 13 amp switch that comes with the CMS-OF.  I'd planned to put photos on the FOG showing how it goes together on my own CMS.  Safety, adherence to sound electrical principles and code adherence are primary in my thinking.  Are you saying that this kind of information would be deleted? 

Willy, that would not be permissible. It's modifying a tool to do something that's explicitly stated is not allowed in the manual. That being using it with the OF 2200. I wasn't present when UL tested the CMS and I don't know if there were issues beyond the switch or not. For that reason, using another switch may or may not be deemed safe by the agency responsible for independently testing tools for safety. If you want to share that info on another forum or publicly on a website or blog, feel free to do so. But it can't be posted here or linked to from here.

On the other hand, if you want to provide me with information on the switch, I can share it with Germany and they can see if that's enough to make the OF 2200 compatible with the CMS and get it re-tested.

personally i dont think it is a switch issue. if there is a switch out there that can be swapped at minimal cost that fixs the ul issue then they would do it . im sure the pain of having to do a seperate unit with the switch for the usa market would be canceled out by all the profits .

 

[Sparktrician]

Shane,
    I'm working on a work-around for the CMS/OF2200 limitation using a UL-approved paddle switch rated for 35 amps (which is commonly available on Amazon) to replace the 13 amp switch that comes with the CMS-OF.  I'd planned to put photos on the FOG showing how it goes together on my own CMS.  Safety, adherence to sound electrical principles and code adherence are primary in my thinking.  Are you saying that this kind of information would be deleted? 

Willy, that would not be permissible. It's modifying a tool to do something that's explicitly stated is not allowed in the manual. That being using it with the OF 2200. I wasn't present when UL tested the CMS and I don't know if there were issues beyond the switch or not. For that reason, using another switch may or may not be deemed safe by the agency responsible for independently testing tools for safety. If you want to share that info on another forum or publicly on a website or blog, feel free to do so. But it can't be posted here or linked to from here.

On the other hand, if you want to provide me with information on the switch, I can share it with Germany and they can see if that's enough to make the OF 2200 compatible with the CMS and get it re-tested.

The switch is a xxxxxxx which is rated to 35 amps.  It's very clear to me that the standard switch is a problem, given the current draw of the OF 2200.  Mechanically, the router fits perfectly.  I'd be very interested in the feedback from Germany. 

>

 

[tjbnwi]

Willy,

The switch is rated for the amperage, but not the horsepower of the router. The 2200 is about 2.949 horsepower.

Tom

 

[peter halle]

I am glad that Shane answered the safety part.

There actually is very little moderation done here in comparison to the number of posts.  I can say with absolute honesty that as a Moderator I am not aware of a single instance in 4 years where I have intentionally moderated a post because it criticized a Festool product. But just as Alex said, I know that I have moderated a post that criticized a product only if it violated another portion of the guidelines and those would usually be the ones the deal with decorum.  Criticize if you wish, just be calm and polite as you deliver your message.  Converse and debate - just don't try and force an situation that could lead to "trolling", "baiting", etc.  

If you go to the Forum Guidelines that Shane linked to above you will notice that after that first section, almost 100% of the remaining items in the guidelines are about making this an enjoyable place for as many as possible where we want members to respect each other as they safely share their ideas, opinions, questions and answers.

Peter

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

personally i dont think it is a switch issue. if there is a switch out there that can be swapped at minimal cost that fixs the ul issue then they would do it . im sure the pain of having to do a seperate unit with the switch for the usa market would be canceled out by all the profits .

The switch currently being used is already specific to the US/Canada. Regardless of the reason, members can't show it being modified to work with the OF 2200. We could speculate on the reason(s) for UL not approving the 2200, but in the end it makes no difference as it pertains to our forum rules.

The switch is rated for the amperage, but not the horsepower of the router. The 2200 is about 2.949 horsepower.

And, this is a perfect example of why we can't have people posting ways to work around manuals and safety protocols on tools. No one wants their house burned to the ground.

 

[Holzhacker]

Blame it on the lawyers and our overly litigious society. Always blame someone else.  [dead horse]

 

[ldmillar1981]

In relation to the kapex trenching thread, I have been thinking hard about getting a kapex, before i make my choice, what is the max trenching height? So I can see if it will affect me or not.

Thank you
Leigh