Milwaukee Sues Festool, and others

GreenGA

GreenGA

Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2007
Messages
877
Not certain if this has already been posted, or the appropriate forum...

It seems that Milwaukee is claiming patent rights to using Lithium-Ion batteries in power tool.  As such, it has filled patent lawsuits against some pretty big players, among them Festool; i.e. Tooltechnic Systems, LLC.

Read for yourself.

http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/manufacturers/milwaukee-claims-exclusive-right-to-make-lithium-ion-tools_o.aspx?utm_source=newsletter&utm_content=jump&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=TOTTU_110414&day=2014-11-04
 
Patents are so 20th century! What Tesla did earlier this year was a nice gesture. But they made themselves "invaluable" to the future of electric motor and battery technology before doing that. This Milwaukee thing sounds like a lame backwards move.
 
You want me to not buy Milwaukee tools.. That is how you get me to not buy Milwaukee tools.
 
I'm with Throwback... That puts Milwaukee at the bottom of my list. IMHO, when you can't compete in the market you compete in the courtroom. And this just reeks of saber-rattling. IANAL but in looking at these patents, they don't seem to pass the "non-obvious" requirement. Prior art or a different (most likely expired) patent covers the use of batteries (in general) in tools. If a better battery technology comes along, it would be obvious that you would want to use that over a lesser battery technology.
 
The suit supposedly challenges the defendant competitors' use of lithium ion battery packs with an output equal to or greater than 20 amps, but Festool has no such products in the US (at least not yet).  So is this an effort to preempt the introduction of, say, a battery-powered TS 55 in the US?

Also, I'm not a patent lawyer, but how long can a company sit on its patent rights?  Haven't lithium ion batteries of this sort been on the market for a number of years now?
 
What good is a patent if you can't enforce it? Milwaukee is competing just fine in the marketplace, but if you invested in intellectual property rights then enforcing them against infringemeng is the smart thing to do. My guess is the goal here isn't sbout stopping competitikn but rather getting a royalty off every battery, this stuff happens in the products business every day
 
lawhoo said:
Also, I'm not a patent lawyer, but how long can a company sit on its patent rights?
Click to expand...

Until they expire. That doesn't mean people won't copy your invention, just means you can try to sue them in court in hopes of getting some cash more than you pay in legal fees. Cordless tools is big business so the rewards are worth the effort
 
I don't know the particular details of the lawsuit, but if some company produced a knock-off domino joiner, I'd expect Festool to take legal action.  This is all about business and protecting IP.
 
Paul G said:
What good is a patent if you can't enforce it? Milwaukee is competing just fine in the marketplace, but if you invested in intellectual property rights then enforcing them against infringemeng is the smart thing to do. My guess is the goal here isn't sbout stopping competitikn but rather getting a royalty off every battery, this stuff happens in the products business every day
Click to expand...
Sure, but patents are only enforceable/valid under certain conditions. And non-obvious is one of those conditions. How much investment did Milwaukee do to get lithium ion batteries in tools? I don't think they developed the battery tech. Nor do I think they did anything to reduce it's size to the point it was feasible to put them in tools.

I agree that this is likely about getting royalties, but where do you think the royalties will come from. I'll bet the manufacturers aren't going to cut into their bottom line to pay them... That leaves the consumer holding the bill for Milwaukee's greed.

I also agree this happens in business every day... My point is that it shouldn't. Particularly when you read about why the patent system was developed in the first place. I'm fairly certain "extortion" wasn't one of the listed reasons.
 
Ajax said:
I don't know the particular details of the lawsuit, but if some company produced a knock-off domino joiner, I'd expect Festool to take legal action.  This is all about business and protecting IP.
Click to expand...
So you are comparing replacing nicads with li-ions to developing a tool that works significantly different than any other tool on the market?
 
Patents serve an important function, to promote innovation by protecting the innovator's intellectual property.  But lithium ion technology wasn't exclusive to Milwaukee.  I can't imagine that other companies weren't working on it concurrently.  That's not to say that Milwaukee has no IP right that it can enforce, but it can't have come as a recent surprise to Milwaukee that others were producing LI tools of this sort years ago (though maybe not Festool), so at what point did Milwaukee have an obligation to assert its rights?  I think it's more than just an issue of when patent rights expire.  My guess is that if I know of a competitor selling a product that I think conflicts with a patent I just got, I can't wait until the year my patent expires to sue.  I would think that the competitor could argue that the suit came too late and that I had waived my right to enforce.  Milwaukee's suit seems to be coming pretty late in the game.  Again, I don't know the law (or, frankly, many of the facts) on this---I'm just asking questions.
 
This looks familiar......
[attachimg=1]
 

Attachments

  • ros125e[1].jpg
    ros125e[1].jpg
    81.5 KB · Views: 1,049
elfick said:
Paul G said:
What good is a patent if you can't enforce it? Milwaukee is competing just fine in the marketplace, but if you invested in intellectual property rights then enforcing them against infringemeng is the smart thing to do. My guess is the goal here isn't sbout stopping competitikn but rather getting a royalty off every battery, this stuff happens in the products business every day
Click to expand...
Sure, but patents are only enforceable/valid under certain conditions. And non-obvious is one of those conditions. How much investment did Milwaukee do to get lithium ion batteries in tools? I don't think they developed the battery tech. Nor do I think they did anything to reduce it's size to the point it was feasible to put them in tools.

I agree that this is likely about getting royalties, but where do you think the royalties will come from. I'll bet the manufacturers aren't going to cut into their bottom line to pay them... That leaves the consumer holding the bill for Milwaukee's greed.

I also agree this happens in business every day... My point is that it shouldn't. Particularly when you read about why the patent system was developed in the first place. I'm fairly certain "extortion" wasn't one of the listed reasons.
Click to expand...

Spare us the emotive words of greed and extortion. All businesses exist to make money. If the fail to accomplish that they cease to exist.

As for where will royalty fees come from? If the defendants lose and upcharge their products rather than cut their profits to pay for their wrongdoing now who is being greedy? Oh yea, it's the evil patent holders fault.
 
Great example of why we need a major change in our philosophy around tool design and start going open-source, it's the future. With cheaper and cheaper 3D printers this sort of thing is going to be common place. Like in Sketchup why not have a 3D Festool Warehouse where users can put their mods and new designs out there for printing? List Forums are about as arcane as using little folder icons on the desktop. A fully customizable tool system is still on the horizon. I'm hopeful Festool can make this happen some day.
 
mcooley said:
Great example of why we need a major change in our philosophy around tool design and start going open-source, it's the future. With cheaper and cheaper 3D printers this sort of thing is going to be common place. Like in Sketchup why not have a 3D Festool Warehouse where users can put their mods and new designs out there for printing? List Forums are about as arcane as using little folder icons on the desktop. A fully customizable tool system is still on the horizon. I'm hopeful Festool can make this happen some day.
Click to expand...

And when someone is mamed by that 3D tool who will they sue? The designer who didn't think through the safety ramifications? The company who printed the unsafe tool? Themselves for being stupid? Open source works fine online where errors don't result in lost limbs or worse.
 
Paul G said:
Spare us the emotive words of greed and extortion. All businesses exist to make money. If the fail to accomplish that they cease to exist.

As for where will royalty fees come from? If the defendants lose and upcharge their products rather than cut their profits to pay for their wrongdoing now who is being greedy? Oh yea, it's the evil patent holders fault.
Click to expand...
LOL! I never said, or even implied, that patent holders are evil. Nor did I say that patents themselves are wrong or that businesses are wrong for trying to make a profit. With the exception of the patent system itself, I spoke specifically of this case. So sir, please spare us your generalizations.
 
Throwback7r said:
You want me to not buy Milwaukee tools.. That is how you get me to not buy Milwaukee tools.
Click to expand...

I tend to buy tools because they serve my needs and Milwaukee tools have served me well as have Festool, Craftsman and others. After this I'll still buy Milwaukee, next up is an M18 fuel impact driver. And that new little M18 blower would be handy too, not to mention a few more M18 flashlights...the list goes on.
 
If Milwaukee does indeed hold a patent on a specific technology, they owe it to themselves, their employees and shareholders to enforce it.

The "20 amp" spec is interesting, as well as the specific list of manufacturers named in the suit. Of particular interest was the glaring omission of such brands as Metabo, Makita, Dewalt, Panasonic, etc... This seems to me (carpenter with zero legal education) to indicate that the suit is less about using Lithium Ion technology in general, and more about specific details of battery construction or the arrangement of the cells?

Anyways, if the law allows TTi to enforce a patent they control, I say more power to them...
 
Paul G said:
Throwback7r said:
You want me to not buy Milwaukee tools.. That is how you get me to not buy Milwaukee tools.
Click to expand...

I tend to buy tools because they serve my needs and Milwaukee tools have served me well as have Festool, Craftsman and others. After this I'll still buy Milwaukee, next up is an M18 fuel impact driver. And that new little M18 blower would be handy too, not to mention a few more M18 flashlights...the list goes on.
Click to expand...

Paul, I have the Makita 18v leaf blower and LOVE it!!! Even with Festool dust extraction, after a full day's worth of work there is invariably some dust to clean up, and that little blower excels at cleaning off your MFT, Kapex, customer's driveway, etc... I've even used it to clear dried leaves out of gutters! Glad to see the tool span multiple battery platforms.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top