Milwaukee Sues Festool, and others

[sae]

I'm with Throwback... That puts Milwaukee at the bottom of my list. IMHO, when you can't compete in the market you compete in the courtroom. And this just reeks of saber-rattling. IANAL but in looking at these patents, they don't seem to pass the "non-obvious" requirement. Prior art or a different (most likely expired) patent covers the use of batteries (in general) in tools. If a better battery technology comes along, it would be obvious that you would want to use that over a lesser battery technology.

I wonder how many of you guys own iPhones....  [poke]

 

[Harvey]

If Milwaukee does indeed hold a patent on a specific technology, they owe it to themselves, their employees and shareholders to enforce it.

The "20 amp" spec is interesting, as well as the specific list of manufacturers named in the suit. Of particular interest was the glaring omission of such brands as Metabo, Makita, Dewalt, Panasonic, etc... This seems to me (carpenter with zero legal education) to indicate that the suit is less about using Lithium Ion technology in general, and more about specific details of battery construction or the arrangement of the cells?

Anyways, if the law allows TTi to enforce a patent they control, I say more power to them...

I took a quick look at the patents - (I'm not a patent lawyer etc, etc) They seem to deal mainly with the pack's design- the brick look vs the old style  rounded canister and the voltage sensing of the battery charge

 

[mcooley]

I think you are missing the point. Open-source is happening for all kinds of future products, including, cars, appliances, etc. In the future there will be safety protocols. Open-source will be regulated just like every other part of the industrial design chain. The important aspect is sharing design solutions across those platforms. Proprietary designs are limiting and in the tool industry we see a lot of unnecessary products that do the same exact thing with marginal differences. But it's a huge shift in perspective to go from devices and tools that speak only to their brand to, instead, a modular design system where certain design standards can be used and expanded on through collective ownership. Dinosaurs beware!

Great example of why we need a major change in our philosophy around tool design and start going open-source, it's the future. With cheaper and cheaper 3D printers this sort of thing is going to be common place. Like in Sketchup why not have a 3D Festool Warehouse where users can put their mods and new designs out there for printing? List Forums are about as arcane as using little folder icons on the desktop. A fully customizable tool system is still on the horizon. I'm hopeful Festool can make this happen some day.

And when someone is mamed by that 3D tool who will they sue? The designer who didn't think through the safety ramifications? The company who printed the unsafe tool? Themselves for being stupid? Open source works fine online where errors don't result in lost limbs or worse.

 

[wow]

Great example of why we need a major change in our philosophy around tool design and start going open-source, it's the future. With cheaper and cheaper 3D printers this sort of thing is going to be common place. Like in Sketchup why not have a 3D Festool Warehouse where users can put their mods and new designs out there for printing? List Forums are about as arcane as using little folder icons on the desktop. A fully customizable tool system is still on the horizon. I'm hopeful Festool can make this happen some day.

And when someone is mamed by that 3D tool who will they sue? The designer who didn't think through the safety ramifications? The company who printed the unsafe tool? Themselves for being stupid? Open source works fine online where errors don't result in lost limbs or worse.

How about if people just use some common sense and nobody sues anybody? Our sue-happy society has caused more harm than all of the the competitors that ever existed. And since open source takes away the profit equation, there's nothing to sue 'for' - there's no money to go after which leaves the bloodsuckers - I mean lawyers - out in the cold. I, for one, can't wait!!! (There are other ways to deal with safety issues, of course.)

As far as Milwaukee's move, it's also about money. It's common for a patent holder to wait until a competitor is firmly established, thereby making sure there is money to go after. No sense in suing a company with no assets, is there? And I agree that this is about royalties. If Milwaukee is proven to own a valid patent (not a certainty at this point) they could stand to realize millions in revenue even if they are only awarded a royalty of pennies per tool - or more correctly. per battery pack.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out...

 

[gkaiseril]

A patent or copyright provides some evidence of a first claim and only provides the right to defend ones idea. It will still take a court to make a ruling about the right to ownership of the idea for a limited time. And it might even be possible for the court to make an error in its judgment. Many think Alexander Graham Bell may have copied information form a patent application that allowed him to develop and patent his version of telephone.

 

[harry_mc]

A quick google search indicates they (Milwaukee Electric Tool Corp.) have already sued and reached agreements with at least Hitachi and Makita (both in 2009) over Lithium Ion battery technology.  Not sure about others.

 

[gkaiseril]

Score 2 for the patent trolls.

This settlement may have been to avoid the cost of defending against the suit. It is cheaper in the end to pay the opponent than your lawyers.

 

[Paul G]

How about if people just use some common sense and nobody sues anybody? Our sue-happy society has caused more harm than all of the the competitors that ever existed. And since open source takes away the profit equation, there's nothing to sue 'for' - there's no money to go after which leaves the bloodsuckers - I mean lawyers - out in the cold. I, for one, can't wait!!! (There are other ways to deal with safety issues, of course.)

I despise lawyers also, that is of course until I need one

[quote author=wow]As far as Milwaukee's move, it's also about money. It's common for a patent holder to wait until a competitor is firmly established, thereby making sure there is money to go after. No sense in suing a company with no assets, is there? And I agree that this is about royalties. If Milwaukee is proven to own a valid patent (not a certainty at this point) they could stand to realize millions in revenue even if they are only awarded a royalty of pennies per tool - or more correctly. per battery pack.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out...
[/quote]

The lawyers are happy whichever way it turns out

 

[Paul G]

Score 2 for the patent trolls.

Milwaukee doesn't even closely resemble the classic definition of a patent troll, that being an entity that doesn't actually produce anything using their patents

 

[wow]

I despise lawyers also, that is of course until I need one

I there weren't any to start with you wouldn't need one.

Remember, 99% of lawyers give the other 1% a bad name...

[big grin]

 

[Paul G]

I think you are missing the point. Open-source is happening for all kinds of future products, including, cars, appliances, etc. In the future there will be safety protocols. Open-source will be regulated just like every other part of the industrial design chain. The important aspect is sharing design solutions across those platforms. Proprietary designs are limiting and in the tool industry we see a lot of unnecessary products that do the same exact thing with marginal differences. But it's a huge shift in perspective to go from devices and tools that speak only to their brand to, instead, a modular design system where certain design standards can be used and expanded on through collective ownership. Dinosaurs beware!

I understand what you're saying, and I've got a box full of computer cables that testify of the waste inherent in proprietary designs. I just don't see how a company like Festool benefits. Google with Android has the benefit of more places to sell ads and mine user data, but a tool company?

Using this topic of batteries I as a consumer would love to buy any brand cordless drill and click on a battery from any brand no different than grabbing the AAs for my stud finder or laser level, but which company is going to forgo the proprietary battery profits? And why would they invest the money in improving battery capacity and performance if the next company can just copy? Just not seeing it happen until battery technology far surpases the demands of the typical drill driver and can easily be commoditized like AAs etc. I don't know the history of 'regular' batteries but maybe those are all expired patents.

 

[gkaiseril]

Score 2 for the patent trolls.

Milwaukee doesn't even closely resemble the classic definition of a patent troll, that being an entity that doesn't actually produce anything using their patents

But that does not mean that they will not use the approach of patent trolls or have an attorney doing this and being paid a percentage of the collections.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if those being sued could combine the suits into one and  could share the cost of the defense.

I wonder if there is not some tool manufacturer elsewhere in the world that developed using 20 vdc or greater before Milwaukee did and if he has a patent on it. But it might only apply to the country that granted him that patent.

I wonder shy there are no Chinese manufacturers listed.

 

[sae]

What?

Half the list is Chinese companies.

 

[wow]

I wonder shy there are no Chinese manufacturers listed.

Simple - they can't collect any $$$ even if they win. It's all about the Benjamin's...

 

[sae]

I wonder shy there are no Chinese manufacturers listed.

Simple - they can't collect any $$$ even if they win. It's all about the Benjamin's...

I don't know what you're all suggesting, but Snap-On is the only American HQ'd company on the list.

Hilti Inc. - Liechtenstein
Max USA Corp - Japan
Snap-On Incorporated - USA
Tooltechnic Systems LLC (Festool) - Germany
Chervon North America Inc. (OEM supplier to brands such as Craftsman, Kobalt, and Masterforce) - China
Positec Tool Corporation et al (Rockwell and Worx; OEM supplier of Performax) - China
Richpower Industries Inc. (Genesis, PowerSmith, and Apprentice) - China
Sunrise Global Marketing LLC (Greenworks tools and OPE) - China

 

[Paul G]

I'm with Throwback... That puts Milwaukee at the bottom of my list. IMHO, when you can't compete in the market you compete in the courtroom. And this just reeks of saber-rattling. IANAL but in looking at these patents, they don't seem to pass the "non-obvious" requirement. Prior art or a different (most likely expired) patent covers the use of batteries (in general) in tools. If a better battery technology comes along, it would be obvious that you would want to use that over a lesser battery technology.

I wonder how many of you guys own iPhones....  [poke]

Or androids... http://fortune.com/2012/08/19/man-bites-dog-google-sues-apple-for-patent-infringement/

 

[sae]

I'm with Throwback... That puts Milwaukee at the bottom of my list. IMHO, when you can't compete in the market you compete in the courtroom. And this just reeks of saber-rattling. IANAL but in looking at these patents, they don't seem to pass the "non-obvious" requirement. Prior art or a different (most likely expired) patent covers the use of batteries (in general) in tools. If a better battery technology comes along, it would be obvious that you would want to use that over a lesser battery technology.

I wonder how many of you guys own iPhones....  [poke]

Or androids... http://fortune.com/2012/08/19/man-bites-dog-google-sues-apple-for-patent-infringement/

To be fair, I think Apple fired the shot across the bow when it sued Samsung for infringing on it's "rectangle with rounded corners" patent.

The floodgates opened after that iirc, with slide-to-unlock, two-fingers-on-a-mobile-device, menus-on-a-mobile-device, etc.  [blink] Then came the countersuits with system architecture, storage, etc etc. Not even sure what the total number of outstanding lawsuits is now.

 

[Ajax]

I don't know the particular details of the lawsuit, but if some company produced a knock-off domino joiner, I'd expect Festool to take legal action.  This is all about business and protecting IP.

So you are comparing replacing nicads with li-ions to developing a tool that works significantly different than any other tool on the market?

hmmm...never said anything of the sort.  Companies protect their IP everyday.  I see Milwaukee protecting their IP just as I would expect Festool to protect profits IP.

Said nothing about the merits of the case or whether one protected technology is better than another.

 

[crsowa]

I'm with Throwback... That puts Milwaukee at the bottom of my list. IMHO, when you can't compete in the market you compete in the courtroom. And this just reeks of saber-rattling. IANAL but in looking at these patents, they don't seem to pass the "non-obvious" requirement. Prior art or a different (most likely expired) patent covers the use of batteries (in general) in tools. If a better battery technology comes along, it would be obvious that you would want to use that over a lesser battery technology.

I wonder how many of you guys own iPhones....  [poke]

Or androids... http://fortune.com/2012/08/19/man-bites-dog-google-sues-apple-for-patent-infringement/

To be fair, I think Apple fired the shot across the bow when it sued Samsung for infringing on it's "rectangle with rounded corners" patent.

The floodgates opened after that iirc, with slide-to-unlock, two-fingers-on-a-mobile-device, menus-on-a-mobile-device, etc.  [blink] Then came the countersuits with system architecture, storage, etc etc. Not even sure what the total number of outstanding lawsuits is now.

I think apple is also claiming that they invented the hot-linking of phone numbers in web pages to the phone app... So when you click a phone number on a web page, it sends the number to the phone to call it.

Also not a patent lawyer, but aren't they only hood for 7 years?  Or is that something different?  Pharmaceutical ?  Any who...  They didn't invent the Li-ion battery, so who are they to dictate how it is used. 

 

[Paul G]

  Any who...  They didn't invent the Li-ion battery, so who are they to dictate how it is used.

I don't think they invented the plastics or alloys either that are required for their tools. A lot of things are invented from things invented by someone else. It's the nature of innovation.