Moving (220v) German Festool Workshop to the US

[rocky100370]

I'd consider checking into if a SYS-PowerStation can be charged on US 240 vac power. If so, that would take care of both your in-shop needs and your remote power needs.

[attachimg=1]

This is next on my list so I have 220v at the job site!

 

[festoller]

Thanks again for your replies!

SYS-Power Station would of course be awesome, apart from the transport and cost issues. Although there’s probably a much cheaper third party power bank solution available, the cost is for sure close to replacing the Tools.

I leaning towards replacing, for convenience, support, cost of transport and damage issues. Being forced to shut down a project for days because of power issues, or not being able to get the proper spare part, can easily become much pricier than purchasing new tools, plus the new warranty. I assume the German/ EU warranty is not valid in the US, even for cordless tools?

The only alternative would be a suitable inverter (110v-220v), but I couldn’t find any recommendations for this specific case and I’m afraid it’s one more defect waiting to happen.

 

[Jim_in_PA]

I do believe you are correct relative to warranty transferability..'doubt it crosses between the geographic markets. Aside from the getting them here challenge, the cordless/battery powered tools are pretty easy to deal with, but I think you'd be making a good decision to replace the corded tools with "native" North American versions for the reasons you mention. Yes, it costs money, but it solves the electrical and warranty concerns as well as allows you to potentially enjoy any upgrades that have been made since you bought what you have now.

 

[festoller]

Working through the cordless Festools I noticed chargers are not 100-240V and there seems to be no corded product with 100-240V power supply.

Fortunately price disparity between Germany and US is not as bad as I thought, but there are some exceptions, like Rotex and Domino. Hopefully supply isn’t going to be a problem.

 

[Coen]

Installing EU receptacles and wall boxes is a great idea....

Definitely an argument to be made there for a PowerHub / SYS-PH with a US 220V plug fitted.

Buy two, leaving you with 8 x 220v outlets for your various EU tools to run from, and no issues with the hard wired infrastructure in your residence/garage etc.

Even if you only 'need' one, buy two, so you have a spare on hand.

I would be careful here. In the same way as wiring an EU socket on a wall is not a good idea.

The thing is, US "220V" is not equivalent to European "230V" in where the earth it.

In US it is actually someting along the "L1" "PE" "L2" with L1 and L2 being opposithe phase to give you 220V.

In Europe, it is "L, N, P" with the L being 230V against the ground and the N being effectively "ground" just not earthed locally.

For most devices, this does not matter given how they are wired. Definitely does not matter for the non-earthed stuff. But with earthed devices, there can be devices which expect one of the working wires to be 0V against ground and the other 230V(average). Such devices may not work correctly and/or their electronics can burn out.

Taking a device you know is compatible and giving it a US 220V plug can be completely safe as long as you know the device can handle/is-compatible-with this operation.

Wiring an European plug in a NON-STANDARD way however can be dangerous. It can create the FALSE impression on non-experts that ANYTHING that can be physically plugged they can plug there ... which is not the case.

Wiring up European plugs around the shop and powering them from a properly earthed 110V->230V transformer may not be officially legal, but is safe if done propelry.

Taking a US grid 2x110V input and putting a 1x230V socket on it ... not so much.

That stuff is super rare. Mainly central heaters. In Belgium they have areas with 137 L-PE. To het to 230 they connect in between phases. And the Schuko plug they (and the Germans) use is nog polarized.

 

[Coen]

Sell. Used prices are high. Then re-buy in the USA.

 

[mino]

That stuff is super rare. Mainly central heaters. In Belgium they have areas with 137 L-PE. To het to 230 they connect in between phases. And the Schuko plug they (and the Germans) use is nog polarized.

That is true indeed. The absolute wast majority devices can handle this fine. But you dot not want to be explaining this to the court when (even unrelated) #&@{ hits the fan.

One can -possibly- argue to have locally non-standard stuff for specific needs, but which is otherwise completely compatible and just uses a different standard. As long as that arrangement cannot be mistakenly taken for a local standard. E.g. having European plugs on a transformer-driven 230 circuit would be arguably OK.

But there is exactly zero chance one will succeed with "it should have been fine most of the time" for cases where different systems are (regulation-wise) arbitrarily intermixed. You will also never find a certified person who will undersign such wiring.

The problem is that lots of crappy appliance designs *assume* lots of things are in place - as the law says they should be - and do not have protections for them as would be appropriate. Such devices can pass UL but once put in non-standard situation would happily burn out etc. Now, in reality, the core issue would be with the device being crappy. But should it blow, and be connected to a weirdo wiring, the wiring will be legally flagged as the culprit ...

 

[Coen]

Nothing sold with Schuko plug will burn if polarization is reversed. It might give an error, like some Gas boilers.

But still; I'm all for encouraging the US to join the 230/240 world, but on a personal level it's easier to roll over and that's one of the reasons I said; sell and rebuy.

 

[mino]

Nothing sold with Schuko plug will burn if polarization is reversed. It might give an error, like some Gas boilers.
...

I respect your views on many topics, but here you are taking a too leasury take for my taste.

TLDR:
Moving from a L+N(+PE) to L1+L2(+PE) is different than the L+N+PE N+L+PE polarity swap - for a grounded device. It is moving outside of the design assumptions of devices made for the single-phase L+N+PE standard.

------------
There are switched power source designs which use the PE as a ground reference for some cost saving reasons of for some functional need even. They should not, but do. What happens is the power source "detects" which of the two working wires is N by comparing to PE and then setups the power controller ASIC to work with that assumption.

Those are bad designs, but they are valid/legal in the single-phase standard world. When connected as L1+L2+PE they can act unexpectedly - basically burning up the electronics.

I am not aware of a reputable vendor making such these days. But that does not matter. If you make a plug (of certain type) generally available anyone can plug into it any stuff with that plug.
The best you can do there is label such socket as "Restricted use" etc. which may cover you if some crap happens. In a commercial setting with only trained users.

But my point was other. It was never absolute. Thee point being It is simply NOT WORTH IT to be inventing one's own electrical wiring standards. No matter what.

Yes, it is possible. Yes, it can be done. Yes almost anything can be made to work with some ingenuity. I for one can make one out of the head if wanted. But no sane electrician would EVER recommend anyone to make up their own wiring standard.

If you are a pro, have a valid need (standard not work), have the money to pay for a project team and for a crazy ammount of design and paperwork to run your own setup. Then fine. But that is not the case here for most folks I believe.
And even then you will not be allowed to use a generic physical socket type that could be mistaken for "standard socket" - in a residential setting. No one will ever sign-off on that. In a commercial place, yes, you have controlled user base so you can get by with labelling and a training program for employees.

At same, I fully agree power lines are no a rocket science if you understand the physics behind. But they are no joke either. The regulations we now have were paid by a lot of dead people and a LOT of burned houses before they became mandatory.

 

[imdking]

Just replace the tools. The hassle of getting them to work once you're here is not worth it.

I am a permanent resident in USA. And I go home to Botswana every Xmas for 6 weeks. So, I set up some tools for cabinet making for my mom's house. I started with a Makita router, the RP2301. It was very cheap here in the States, but would not work in Botswana. I priced a converter, getting the tool and the converter there..... I ended up returning the router to Amazon, and bought one in Botswana. I paid a higher price, but not as high as it would have cost getting the converter, or generator.

I bought my TS55, Domino 500 and Kapex from UK , and had them shipped to Botswana . It's easier than trying to get American tools to work in Botswana.

Now my cordless Makita impact drivers and drill, I bought here, and took them in the suitcase with me. I did plug in the charger after working the battery flat, and you know what happened?! There was a loud pop! And a puff of smoke! Luckily, I was able to find a Makita charger locally, and I was back in business.

So, from experience, I suggest you get rid of the corded tools. Bring the cordless, and buy chargers once you get to the States.

Good luck.

 

[Coen]

Nothing sold with Schuko plug will burn if polarization is reversed. It might give an error, like some Gas boilers.
...

I respect your vi
TLDR:
Moving from a L+N(+PE) to L1+L2(+PE) is different than the L+N+PE N+L+PE polarity swap - for a grounded device. It is moving outside of the design assumptions of devices made for the single-phase L+N+PE standard.

Nope. There is nothing dictating that 230V should me made by using L-N with L-PE being 230. That's why there is abundance in (mainly Belgium) getting 230V from connecting in between two 137V phases... where you get something very similar to what the Americans have.

Also, our (Germany's) plug standard is NOT polarized, urban myth to the contrary.

The UK standard IS polarized and that's why I had to change a setting in my Fluke 1664 FC that I bought from the UK to no longer pester me about L-N flips.

Also note how UK's 110V building site uses is split phase, each being 55V relative to PE.

In NL we switched over from 127V to 220V in the 50's and 60's. In part this was done by changing the transformer, in part this was done by connecting in between phases. When individual users already had 220V because they connected 'in between' they had to rewire the fuse box when the transformer was eventually switched.

The sh*t with Schuko is that it allows stuff that requires ground to be plugged into an ungrounded outlet. And then you get things like desktop PC's with 115V on the chassis.

 

[mino]

Nope. There is nothing dictating that 230V should me made by using L-N with L-PE being 230.
...

That L+N+PE is a specific standard is exactly he case. It is explicit in the standards.

Now, it is good to remember that electrical standards across Europe are NOT harmonized in any way. There are some inter-compatible standards. But the market is still not trully merged. This means that an appliance certified/sold in Belgium is not automatically legal to sell/use in CZ and vice versa. The makers need to have them aligned to multiple standards, and when they cannot/do not bother, they can simply avoid selling in some markets. Like Belgium, for example.

E.g. in CZ we use the "French" socket standard which is polarized and does not allow an earthed plug to go into a non-earthed socket. For one I have not seen a "non-earthed socket" for my whole life here for example. But i know some existed in the early 20th century. Before we adopted standards for wiring using the French socket in an earthed variety.

For example, the French plug is polarized, but the standards are written as such that it is not mandated. So the devices must be able to handle L+N+PE as well as N+L+PE. Chinese standard is the same as they took the 3x380/3x400V setup too due to their later electrification.

As for standards "not saying anything about L+N+PE". Actually in CZ ALL the electrical wiring standards since 1930s time specify separtely L1/L2/L3/N and PE.

The old wirings of the TN-C standard used a two-wire L+PEN setup so I can tell you it DID matter a lot wich wire was L. Now on the device side, since the sockets are not guaranteed to be polarized, the device needed to handle both orders.
These days that is only grandfathered. But point being, every single (grounded) electrical appliance made for sale in CZ over the last century or so was built with the L+N+PE assumption. If the design *depends* on that or NOT. No way to know without takeing the appliance appart and/or testing it. I am sure almost all will work fine with L1+L2+PE. but we do not *know* that. That is the issue here.

I think you get caught over the fact that the absolute vast majority of devices which are designed for L+N+PE will work fine -by design - in an L1+L2+PE mode. Of course they do! Most designs out there are indeed agnostic to the relative voltage and relative phase of the working wires.

The problem is you cannot guarantee/be sure that ANY AND EVERY device will be fine.

And THAT is the difference between:
a) putting a US 240V plug on a specific device. One you know will work fine and was tested to work fine.

b) making an L1+L2+PE *general use* socket that can have anything plugged into it that fits, including the rare device that will burn out or shock you if plugged in.

Scenario a) means you can validate the operation in controlled manner with a qualified person and taking required precautions. So you KNOW it will work fine.

Scenario b) means you are *HOPING* that whateven is plugged in will work our OK. And HOPE is not enough here.

That is why a) is legal or at least justifiable in court as you can prove all reasonable precautions were taken.
While b) is pretty much guaranteed to have you lose an insurance claim, and be on the edge of criminal proceeding should something bad happen. And it DOES NOT MATTER if that "something bad" was not directly cause by usage of a non-standard wiring. Knowing and intentional tampering will be enough - as that on itself puts you on the hook in most jurisdictions.

This is my last post on this here as this is way off topic and I believe OP already got his answers.

I ask only one thing:

If you are a certified electrician or not, please never publicly recommend people wire things up against their local regulations/standards. Just do NOT do that. Please. People get hurt doing that all the time just because "that guy who knew about it said it will be fine".

 

[Coen]

Nope. There is nothing dictating that 230V should me made by using L-N with L-PE being 230.
...

That L+N+PE is a specific standard is exactly he case. It is explicit in the standards.

Oh really. I have the whole Dutch standard, and nowhere it's explicit. As the Belgians have 137 L-PE in a lot of places... it's not in there.

Now, it is good to remember that electrical standards across Europe are NOT harmonized in any way.

Bullsh*t. Ever heard of the IEC? Every national norm in the EU is basicly the IEC version with some minor changes.

There are some inter-compatible standards. But the market is still not trully merged. This means that an appliance certified/sold in Belgium is not automatically legal to sell/use in CZ and vice versa. The makers need to have them aligned to multiple standards, and when they cannot/do not bother, they can simply avoid selling in some markets. Like Belgium, for example.

Common market...

E.g. in CZ we use the "French" socket standard which is polarized and does not allow an earthed plug to go into a non-earthed socket. For one I have not seen a "non-earthed socket" for my whole life here for example. But i know some existed in the early 20th century. Before we adopted standards for wiring using the French socket in an earthed variety.

The French socket isn't that much different from the socket the Germans use. The French use use a male earth pin instead of 2 small springs, so their socket can be polarized. However, the plugs still can be inserted into unearthed sockets. In NL sockets in living rooms, bedrooms, etc. weren't required to have grounding prior to 1997 and since then only new builds or renovations are required to have them.

For example, the French plug is polarized, but the standards are written as such that it is not mandated. So the devices must be able to handle L+N+PE as well as N+L+PE. Chinese standard is the same as they took the 3x380/3x400V setup too due to their later electrification.

As for standards "not saying anything about L+N+PE". Actually in CZ ALL the electrical wiring standards since 1930s time specify separtely L1/L2/L3/N and PE.

Yet there is no polarization for anything class II... as the plug can be inserted in the socket in two ways. I wonder how long you are going to put this stuff up lol.

The old wirings of the TN-C standard used a two-wire L+PEN setup so I can tell you it DID matter a lot wich wire was L. Now on the device side, since the sockets are not guaranteed to be polarized, the device needed to handle both orders.

The PEN wire in the supply has zero influence on the polarization.

These days that is only grandfathered. But point being, every single (grounded) electrical appliance made for sale in CZ over the last century or so was built with the L+N+PE assumption. If the design *depends* on that or NOT. No way to know without takeing the appliance appart and/or testing it. I am sure almost all will work fine with L1+L2+PE. but we do not *know* that. That is the issue here.

Well, I'm still waiting for any example. I already gave you one with the gas boilers not working on 137V L-PE, which is the case for some models that measure the ionization current between L-PE. Some of those will also not work in proper 230 L-PE areas when the plug is 180 degrees rotated and inserted. However, in both cases it will not result in any danger.

I think you get caught over the fact that the absolute vast majority of devices which are designed for L+N+PE will work fine -by design - in an L1+L2+PE mode. Of course they do! Most designs out there are indeed agnostic to the relative voltage and relative phase of the working wires.

The problem is you cannot guarantee/be sure that ANY AND EVERY device will be fine.

I specifically mentioned 'devices sold with Schuko plug'.

And THAT is the difference between:
a) putting a US 240V plug on a specific device. One you know will work fine and was tested to work fine.

b) making an L1+L2+PE *general use* socket that can have anything plugged into it that fits, including the rare device that will burn out or shock you if plugged in.

Scenario a) means you can validate the operation in controlled manner with a qualified person and taking required precautions. So you KNOW it will work fine.

Scenario b) means you are *HOPING* that whateven is plugged in will work our OK. And HOPE is not enough here.

b) simply does not exist in the sense of standards-compliant stuff. The closest you will get is maybe some ancient lamp with grounded casing and Edison socket and only a single-pole switch.

That is why a) is legal or at least justifiable in court as you can prove all reasonable precautions were taken.
While b) is pretty much guaranteed to have you lose an insurance claim, and be on the edge of criminal proceeding should something bad happen. And it DOES NOT MATTER if that "something bad" was not directly cause by usage of a non-standard wiring. Knowing and intentional tampering will be enough - as that on itself puts you on the hook in most jurisdictions.

Well, if you want to argue ridiculous USA legalese... that's another thing.

This is my last post on this here as this is way off topic and I believe OP already got his answers.

I ask only one thing:

If you are a certified electrician or not, please never publicly recommend people wire things up against their local regulations/standards. Just do NOT do that. Please. People get hurt doing that all the time just because "that guy who knew about it said it will be fine".

In most cases where people get hurt, it's a certified "professional" installing the danger. In NL we now have a law (again delayed to 1st of April 2022; no joke) stating only certified business are allowed to install, maintain and repair gas boilers, heaters, etc. The big excuse for this law was the 5 to 10 people per year dying from CO poisoning. However... in 95% of those cases... it was the result of "recent work done by a certified plumber". So in reality, the new law is targeting is based on decreasing CO deaths with 1 dead per 3 years.

Where I live myself, the builder didn't strip the incoming earth (TN-S) long enough, then put it in a terminal block were it wasn't clamped. Then the property my sister bought, the mains L and N wires from the meter had uncrimped ferrules.

As for this tools discussing; I already said my part; sell and re-buy. Think long and hard about how much trouble you want for keeping something non-standard.