Moving or Deleting Posts

[Matthew Schenker]

Everyone,

Several of the following posts were moved from another discussion on an unrelated topic.  Since they are on the subject of administration -- specifically, whether and how I move or delete posts -- they are more appropriate here.

The posts were moved to this board so that such criticism can be viewed separately from other topics and not interfere with an unrelated subject.

The moved posts include ones up to Reply #28.  Any posts beyond that were added after the posts were moved.

Thank you,
Matthew

 

[nickao]

But certain Festool discussions are not allowed. If I recall I put the forum on end by dissing Festools lack of quality control last year. No profanity nothing, but people went off the wall against me. Granted it was before the Kapex , but the thing with the Kapex table made my post even more relevant and it seemed to make some even more upset. The truth hurts I guess.

I think some things like that which may cause certain Festool die hards to freak is better off in the far side. I am so tired of having to be so darn politically correct, I like to talk how I type, I mean type how I talk.  ;D

Another topic better suited for the far side may be the use of Qwas dogs and such that have ties to TF, but are still very helpful for the Festool MFT. Maybe they should be talked about on the far side too. I see most of the Qwas dog discussions are deleted because of other than their strictly Festool uses for them being the reason. They are a great item and I feel some people should know about their uses, especially with the Kreg bench clamps. But if links to the Qwas dogs are eliminated some miss out on making their Festool system even better. Maybe I can see why they are deleted, but for the people that are not involved in this TF vs FOG thing it is totally unfair to eliminate them from discussion completely.

So why not leave these unpopular items and Festool discussions on  the far side as well? This way no one will get offended by some unpopular, but valid ideas.

 

[Frank Pellow]

...
Another topic better suited for the far side may be the use of Qwas dogs and such that have ties to TF, but are still very helpful for the Festool MFT. Maybe they should be talked about on the far side too. I see most of the Qwas dog discussions are deleted because of other than their strictly Festool uses for them being the reason. They are a great item and I feel some people should know about their uses, especially with the Kreg bench clamps. But if links to the Qwas dogs are eliminated some miss out on making their Festool system even better. Maybe I can see why they are deleted, but for the people that are not involved in this TF vs FOG thing it is totally unfair to eliminate them from discussion completely.
...

I see no reason to have to discuss QWAS Dogs on the Far Side.  They are a legitimate product, cariied by at least two Festool dealers and we should be able to have technical discussions about them here.

Have any technical discussions of QWAS Dogs been removed from this forum?  I certainly hope not.  In the interest of full disclosure, I recently purchased 4 QWAS Dogs and 2 Rail Dogs.  They work great!

 

[Frank Pellow]

...
Another topic better suited for the far side may be the use of Qwas dogs and such that have ties to TF, but are still very helpful for the Festool MFT. Maybe they should be talked about on the far side too. I see most of the Qwas dog discussions are deleted because of other than their strictly Festool uses for them being the reason. They are a great item and I feel some people should know about their uses, especially with the Kreg bench clamps. But if links to the Qwas dogs are eliminated some miss out on making their Festool system even better. Maybe I can see why they are deleted, but for the people that are not involved in this TF vs FOG thing it is totally unfair to eliminate them from discussion completely.
...

I see no reason to have to discuss QWAS Dogs on the Far Side.  They are a legitimate product, cariied by at least two Festool dealers and we should be able to have technical discussions about them here.

Have any technical discussions of QWAS Dogs been removed from this forum?  I certainly hope not.  In the interest of full disclosure, I recently purchased 4 QWAS Dogs and 2 Rail Dogs.  They work great!

Matthew, it appears that Nick was right about this.  Dan Clermont's note about becoming a QWAS dealer seems to have bee removed.  I am very surprised dissapointed in you, Matthew!

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Good Afternoon,
Before this gets out of hand...

I've never deleted a discussion about Qwas Dogs.  In fact, a while back I wrote to Qwas himself and told him I was fine with him posting about Qwas Dogs here, and even wished him luck with sales.  That was even after some of the more unfortunate circumstances we all are aware of.  With what's happened lately, I don't think I'll be in touch with Qwas, and he won't be posting here about his invention.  Well, just goes to show you that war hurts both sides.

But certain Festool discussions are not allowed. If I recall I put the forum on end by dissing Festools lack of quality control last year. No profanity nothing, but people went off the wall against me. Granted it was before the Kapex , but the thing with the Kapex table made my post even more relevant and it seemed to make some even more upset. The truth hurts I guess.

I'm not sure what discussions you're referring to.  Critical discussions are absolutely allowed, and I can point to several of them going on right now.  And you mention the Kapex, which is a perfect example.

Thanks,
Matthew

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Matthew, it appears that Nick was right about this.  Dan Clermont's note about becoming a QWAS dealer seems to have bee removed.  I am very surprised dissapointed in you, Matthew!

Look here: http://festoolownersgroup.com/index.php?topic=6383.0

This discussion was moved temporarily from the "Sales" area to the "Off Topic" board.  But I just moved it back.

Let's keep in mind people that I am allowing posts about a product being sold by an individual about to be named in a libel suit.  Talk about open minded!  Even if I were to delete these discussions, I think it would be understandable!

Thanks,
Matthew

 

[nickao]

I suggest next time Matthew when you move something you put a  place holder in the post saying it was moved as the appearance is that you deleted it, then Frank called you on it, then you put it back in another place.

I am not saying this is what happened I am saying it is this type of stuff that gives the appearance that you wanted it deleted until you were called on it.

Everytime something is moved there should be a note it was moved in the same spot as the initial post or there will be some misunderstandings. Some people are just never going to believe your good intentions as this appeared you deleted it and waited until Frank called you on it to put it back.

It is this kind of innocent thing that put some of the guys to the TF in the first place as some people are not as trusting as me and others on the FOG.

I honestly thought you deleted it and giving what is going on I do not think it was a stretch for me to think this.

 

[Daviddubya]

May I make some suggestions?

Frank - You can use the Remove button to delete your erroneous post.

Nick and Frank - The next time you are looking for a post, and you don't find it where you thought you saw it, try the Search function before jumping to conclusions.

Matthew - Pin a medal on your chest for all of the crap you take running this forum.

 

[nickao]

NO NO NO

When I see a post and 2 seconds later it is gone I should not have to search for a 1 Minute old post! And it was not there anyway becasue I DID SEARCH for IT! That is why I say it was deleted. I am sure Matthew did something with his time in between moving it.

That post WAS NOT in that section until well after. Matthew did not move it right over.

This is the kind of stuff that gives bad appearances. Do not go deleting posts Frank that, is just WRONG!

David you have no idea what you are talking about in this instance.

A place holder stating the post was moved makes it clear to everyone Matthews intentions with any post. He has been accused of deleting before than it always comes back that he moved it.

So just make a place holder to avoid the confusion. Or there will always be people assuming it was deleted it until someone said something. You act like the search is going to find it in the first place, not. I mean this is not the first time this has happened!

The only reason not to make a place holder in my eyes is to see if something can be deleted and then not caught.

Give me one good reason a simple place holder should not be used and I will listen David. Telling us where a post went is nothing more than common courtesy. Its not so hard to write " this post moved to so and so". Sure would make life simple for someome looking for a brand new post and intentions transparent.

 

[Brice Burrell]

Matthew, it appears that Nick was right about this.  Dan Clermont's note about becoming a QWAS dealer seems to have bee removed.  I am very surprised dissapointed in you, Matthew!

Look here: http://festoolownersgroup.com/index.php?topic=6383.0

This discussion was moved temporarily from the "Sales" area to the "Off Topic" board.  But I just moved it back.

Let's keep in mind people that I am allowing posts about a product being sold by an individual about to be named in a libel suit.  Talk about open minded!  Even if I were to delete these discussions, I think it would be understandable!

Thanks,
Matthew

Matthew (and FOG members) it is actions like moving threads because they are indirectly related to the other forum or members there, that causes tension with the membership here (and over there). This could be viewed as petty or spiteful, the thread having been moved back doesn't change the fact that it was moved in the first place.

The point is moving threads causes confusion and the members can't help but believe a thread may have been deleted. Given the fact that this isn't the first time threads of this nature have been moved it only adds the potential confusion and or frustration some members may feel. Remember, moving the thread out of it's place effects Dan and the members that may benefit from his thread. I'd ask that you more carefully consider these kinds of actions in the future.
(Sorry Nick, somehow I missed your post that already addressed this)

 

[nickao]

David that make no sense what so ever.

Brice I concur EXACTLY! And the confusion could easily be rectified by a simple place holder,the reason I suggested it in the first place. How David does not get this is beyond me I am done trying to explain it.

 

[nickao]

Yep. It may take for one of your posts to get moved for you to see my way of thinking, then again maybe not.

 

[Brice Burrell]

Having been a long time member here I know threads are occasionally moved into the appropriate section of the forum without any notice. This is done to help members find threads/information and to keep the place organized.

It does seem the removal of Dan's thread was different and I completely understand why the membership might be confused and or suspicious of the motive behind this removal, given the standard practice of other forums to give notice of a moved thread. (I say suspicious of the motive because it doesn't appear to be in the best interests of the membership. However, I'd like hear Matthew's reasoning for moving the thread before coming to final conclusions as to his motives.)

Given this most recent incident, I'd like to ask Matthew if he would be willing to adopted a similar policy that other forums use for moved threads.   

 

[nickao]

Well the policy is normally "the post or thread  in question points to where the  post  or thread has been moved to".  Including a link to bring you to the new location is best, isn't it? I call it a place holder. Maybe it should be called a post pointer.

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Good Evening,
First, I will move posts whenever it appears necessary, in order to help organize material on this forum.  As David suggests, if members are interested in a post, click the "Search" button in the main menu and enter a simple word or two.  I will not be posting messages everywhere a post used to be directing people to where it is now.  First, that is an extra administrative task, and second it clutters up the board with notices that are pointless once people begin posting responses.

Second, let's keep in mind that the person mentioned here is a moderator on the other forum and thus is part of the difficulties I have been reporting lately.  I think it is above and beyond fair expectations that I am even allowing him to reap financial gain by having his products publicized here.  Personally, given the state of affairs, I would prefer his products are not mentioned here.  But I respect FOG members and would not delete their posts if they do mention the products.

I'd love to know what the people at TF would do if someone here were to go there and publicize the FOG.  Anyone care to try?

Thanks,
Matthew

 

[nickao]

Okay just say that then Matthew., This has nothing to do about running the forum more efficiently at all you just said so yourself. When a post gets moved you have to move it right? It takes two seconds, instead of deleting it just write in the link(the same amount of time) where you moved it to. SO do not say it is any more work, it is just different work.

I really do not care, just say it. You will make it hard for any dealer or TF person to post short of deleting them.

The Qwas dogs topic did not need to be moved and now someone that wants info has to search like that. You are just making it harder to find info.

The guys at TF just won they made my forum work less efficiently.

Just delete anything from the TF guys at all. To me that is the more straight up thing to do because anything else is making the FOG users have a harder time finding valuable info.

I understand not working with them completely. I do not understand making it harder to find info. I mean I wasted 15 minutes looking for that post myself banging my head against the wall until I realized you deleted and not until you said you moved it could I find it. Why did I have to go through that at all. You hurt me and the few guys looking to add to that post, not the TF guys.

When you moved my post you informed me and everyone else(I appreciate it) I really see no difference. And you commonly say hey I am going to combine threads etc, so it id not a change in policy or anything like that at all.

Of course I will not let this stop me from enjoying the FOG and I am not one to go to TF as you know, but I do not have to be happy about your decision on this issue.

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Nick,
I'm not sure I follow a lot of what you're saying.

Posting a link about where the post has been moved is indeed extra work, and clutters the boards.  Moving it is a simple action.

When a post is moved, it is not harder to find.  The search function finds it no matter where it is.

Thanks,
Matthew

 

[Brice Burrell]

Good Evening,
First, I will move posts whenever it appears necessary, in order to help organize material on this forum.  As David suggests, if members are interested in a post, click the "Search" button in the main menu and enter a simple word or two.  I will not be posting messages everywhere a post used to be directing people to where it is now.  First, that is an extra administrative task, and second it clutters up the board with notices that are pointless once people begin posting responses........

I'm not familiar with the Simple Machines software but find it hard to believe there isn't an easy way to implement a system like other forums used for moved posts that would be little or no more administrative work for you.

......Second, let's keep in mind that the person mentioned here is a moderator on the other forum and thus is part of the difficulties I have been reporting lately.  I think it is above and beyond fair expectations that I am even allowing him to reap financial gain by having his products publicized here.  Personally, given the state of affairs, I would prefer his products are not mentioned here.  But I respect FOG members and would not delete their posts if they do mention the products. (emphasis added by Brice B.)

You have already disrespected Dan Clermont and the rest of the FOG membership by moving the thread in question for your own personal reasons. Moving it back was the right to do. However, I do feel there is larger issue at play here...

Look here: http://festoolownersgroup.com/index.php?topic=6383.0

This discussion was moved temporarily from the "Sales" area to the "Off Topic" board.  But I just moved it back.

Let's keep in mind people that I am allowing posts about a product being sold by an individual about to be named in a libel suit.  Talk about open minded!  Even if I were to delete these discussions, I think it would be understandable!

Thanks,
Matthew
(emphasis added by Brice B.)

As was already mentioned, this isn't the first time this has happened. You have been accused of "manipulating the content of this forum" in the past, to your own admission, you have done just that here. In your own mind you may have justified your action. However, I feel you have a larger responsibility to the FOG membership to better represent our interests over your personal feelings (that is, within reason). I'm not suggesting you shouldn't have a certain amount of control over the content of this forum but these kinds of poor administrative decisions leads to conflict with the membership here and on the other forum. It might be time to take responsibility for fallout of these types of actions may have and take the necessary steps to prevent these misunderstandings in the future.

....I'd love to know what the people at TF would do if someone here were to go there and publicize the FOG.  Anyone care to try?

Thanks,
Matthew

 

I'll take you up on that, in the morning I'll post a message that promotes the FOG. I believe the membership there won't care one way or another because they know the FOG is a great asset to the Festool user community. 

 

[Brice Burrell]

Did i slip into the "Far Side" accidentally?
.....As far as I understand the FOG - Matthew started it and owns it, he continues to maintain it and does his best to be fair to all parties.

We are guests, much as we might like to think of it as "our" board and want to impose our own ideas - we don't have the right.

Yes, we are guests just as people are guest at hotels. A hotel is nothing without guests as is a forum. When management doesn't represent the guests interests they leave, same thing with a forum.

In general Matthew does an outstanding job managing the forum. I don't think he always uses good judgment when it comes to issues with the other forum.

 

[Matthew Schenker]

....I'd love to know what the people at TF would do if someone here were to go there and publicize the FOG.  Anyone care to try?

Thanks,
Matthew

 

I'll take you up on that, in the morning I'll post a message that promotes the FOG. I believe the membership there won't care one way or another because they know the FOG is a great asset to the Festool user community. 

Brice,
Since you are so incensed about me simply moving a topic from one board to another, and you're already heading over to TF to see what happens when you publicize the FOG, let me ask you for one other thing: ask them what happened to the people who previously mentioned the FOG.  I happen to know of three individuals who were banned from that forum for mentioning the FOG, and all their posts were deleted -- without comment.

Unlike other forums, where administrators delete posts whenever they see fit and don't feel the need to inform the members about it, here in the FOG, I have taken unbelievable pains to delete almost no posts at all, and any posts I have deleted were always discussed openly.

People are free and welcome to criticize my management.  That's fair.  But it's also fair for me to respond, and in my opinion any suggestions that I "disrespect the membership" or somehow "manipulate content" (Brice's terms) are outrageous.  It's especially outrageous at this point in time, when I have taken on extra administrative work to create a whole board for posts I don't want or like, and which a lot of members complain about.  Really, my life would be a lot easier if I had less respect for members and just deleted this kind of stuff.  Instead, I have taken on the extra burden of trying to listen to all sides, and to manage the new systems as well as possible.  What disrespect!

The irony here is that Brice is openly accusing me of disrespecting membership and manipulating content, and yet his posts stand for all to see, uncensored and uncontrolled.

So Brice, please report back to me when you get to the bottom of the membership bannings and post deletions over on the other forum.  Since you hate any kind of administrative control, I assume you will raise the general issue of respect for members over there as well.

Thanks,
Matthew