My Beaded Face Frames

[sw1211]

I was real interested in the new Kreg Beaded Face Frame System, that was right up to the point of seeing the price, $500.  It seemed the majority of the cost had to be in the fence and specifically in the handled unit that attached to the fence that moves it over the bit.  I thought there had to be a cheaper solution.  My plan was to buy the following and make my own beaded face frame system.

I - Costs - What I purchased

From Ace Tool
A. Kreg Top Trak, 4' - $32.97 (cut down to 32")
B. Kreg Adhesive Measuring Tape 12' (trimmed to fit) - $9.99
C. Kreg Precision Router Table Stop - $20.99
D. Kreg Precision Router Table Setup Bars - $33.60 (you can buy just one bar for $9-$10, I figured I'd use the various sizes for other set ups)

From Woodcraft
A. Kreg 1/4" x 1.5" Face Frame Notching Bit - $54.99
B. Kreg 1/4" Standard Face Frame Beading Bit - $34.99

Misc
A. 1/2" Stainless Steel Dowel, for set up - $5.00 (John, who sells the domino spacers and MFT dogs on Ebay provided this, Kreg also sells this for $9.99)

Total Cost =  $192.53 vs $500

I'm using a previously purchased miter gauge with a fence attached to it that will ride in the miter slot of the router table. 

Results of the first test aren't perfect, I rushed some of the set-up and cuts, with a little more patience I think I can get closer to perfect.

Below are the results.  I tested this by making a corner cut and a cut in the middle of the face frame.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Steve, the results look pretty good from here! I think you did even better cost-wise
because I don't think you get any bits for the $500 Kreg kit.

I'd love to see more pictures, especially of how you use the Setup Bars and
particularly the 1/2" steel dowel.

 

[sw1211]

Michael,

John has a real good step by step process of the Kreg set up on his site 

The metal dowel is used to center the router fence stop in relation to the notching bit.  Since the dowel is 1/2", the stop is first set so it's touching the side of the dowel then the stop is moved 1/4" and it perfectly centers the stop.  From there it's an easy process to move the stop to exactly where it's needed without having to make any test cuts. 

The Kreg set-up does include the 1/4" * 1.5" notching bit and the 1/4" bead bit.

I'll try to post some pictures later of the use of the set-up bars.

 

[mastercabman]

Steve, i also went the way you did.I just received the bits yesterday so i have not had a chance to try it.I'm going to use my INCRA miter gauge with a pc of wood for a fence(i do have some 1" thick MDF left over).I'm not planning on doing production work,so i can take my time and making sure everything is set up right.
I do have a project coming up,Beaded face frame job that is.

 

[sw1211]

Here are a couple of shots using the set-up bars, the height of the notching bit was set and then the beading bit was also set using the end of the bar.

 

[mastercabman]

Steve, Do you know the exact height  for the notching bit?

 

[sw1211]

Steve, Do you know the exact height  for the notching bit?

I believe it depends on which bit you use, for the 1/4" x 1.5" bit you set it 1/4" and the rails/stiles need to be 1.5" wide.  If it's set too high then there will be gaps.

I was hoping to find the owners manual for the Kreg beading system on their website just to check for any set-up tips they have but it's not up there yet, hopefully they'll add it.

 

[woodshopdemos]

Misc
A. 1/2" Stainless Steel Dowel, for set up - $5.00 (John, who sells the domino spacers and MFT dogs on Ebay provided this, Kreg also sells this for $9.99)

Total Cost =  $192.53 vs $500

for absolute clarifiaction, the "John" Steve credits is NOT THIS JOHN.

I am happy to be credited any time but only for that which I do.

I have a problem with anyone using my step-by-step to make their own. I guess it is legit but I will never get anything from Kreg to review again...or anyone else for that matter. Woodshopdemos has had a long and great life. It may be time to just hang up the hat.

 

[harry_]

John,

By definition, a demonstration is :a visual presentation showing how something works or is done. Why does someone do a demonstration? To show others how it is done.

I would have to say that congratulations are in order to you sir. You created a demo showing how it is done. You did it well enough for someone else to do it. To go it a step further, the items Steve purchased, with the exception of the dowel which he saved $4.95 on, everything else was in fact Kreg stuff. He had a quality fence to begin with, why have another?

I don't see it as a big deal really. Neither should you. Nor should Kreg, or anyone else for that matter.

Why did Kreg have you do the review? So that they could sell more stuff. which I can see clearly that they did.

If I was do do the beaded face frames I would probably buy the whole kit, as I do not have a any type of micro adjusting fence.

So I say, you did what Kreg asked you to do and did it quite well.

I am sure that you will find others here in agreement.

 

[greg mann]

Misc
A. 1/2" Stainless Steel Dowel, for set up - $5.00 (John, who sells the domino spacers and MFT dogs on Ebay provided this, Kreg also sells this for $9.99)

Total Cost =  $192.53 vs $500

for absolute clarifiaction, the "John" Steve credits is NOT THIS JOHN.

I am happy to be credited any time but only for that which I do.

I have a problem with anyone using my step-by-step to make their own. I guess it is legit but I will never get anything from Kreg to review again...or anyone else for that matter. Woodshopdemos has had a long and great life. It may be time to just hang up the hat.

John,

I understand your frustration but I would guess that Kreg had anticipated a certain amount of this early on. I would also guess that they understood that a review on your site is also just about the best thing that can happen to a woodworking product these days, right up there with having your tools show up on TV in Tom Silva's hand. There are many products that are not really new and unique but just refinements over past tools. I would guess one could say this about Kreg's height setting gauges, for example. The trick with any of these products is how to make them elegant enough while still cheap enough that a prospective customer will just buy it and not try to make a copy themselves. John Economaki at Bridge City Tools ran into this exact issue with his Kerfmaker tool. Before he even had it to market there was a guy that copied his design in a homemade version, in wood I believe instead of aluminum. Posted it on a forum. John took a novel and ehtical approach to dealing with it. He offered the drawings for the tool to anyone who would make a nominal donation to a certain charity. (I think this is a pretty accurate description of what took place.) Odds are that our fellow posters have decided they can do just as well on their own but, at a certain point, they may just decide it would be better to get the real deal. I will give you a personal example. Some years ago, I built an MFT clone using 8020 extrusions. I luckily had access to these without needing to make the investment myself. You can buy an MFT for what the extrusions cost.  After a time, I decided that my copy was not adequate and sprung for an MFT. I now have that and an MFT3 and a bunch of MFS extrusions to boot. The original table has been dismantled and I use the parts for other things. My experiment opened my eyes to the possibilities and also illustrated just how much I would benefit by having the real thing. Nowadays, when guys ask about making their own I respond that I have "been there, done that" and it it's is probably not worth the effort and it is better to buy the table.

 

[sw1211]

Misc
A. 1/2" Stainless Steel Dowel, for set up - $5.00 (John, who sells the domino spacers and MFT dogs on Ebay provided this, Kreg also sells this for $9.99)

Total Cost =  $192.53 vs $500

for absolute clarifiaction, the "John" Steve credits is NOT THIS JOHN.

I am happy to be credited any time but only for that which I do.

I have a problem with anyone using my step-by-step to make their own. I guess it is legit but I will never get anything from Kreg to review again...or anyone else for that matter. Woodshopdemos has had a long and great life. It may be time to just hang up the hat.

For further clarification, I didn't use your review to make anything.  I was going to do it the way I did with or without your review.  I saw a demo by Kreg at a local WW show last fall and that's when I decided how to approach this.  They thoroughly demo'd every aspect of the system, from set-up to use.  Between that and their video, it was clear how the system works.  I still spent close to $200 on Kreg branded products for this. 

I'm sorry if you feel the need to use this as an excuse to shut down. You in no way encouraged someone to come up with their own set-up, you even specifically discouraged this is another thread.

 

[wnagle]

John,

After reading your review and the above posts, I would be more inclined to  by the system from Kreg that you demoed rather than trying to build it myself.  I do have a question though.

What kind of miter track does the system lock into.  I have two tables, one with no miter tracka and one with a standard track.  Does this system require a T-trac miter slot or the Kreg miter slot in order to set it up?
I can easily change the miter track on my table that has the standard one but I want to keep the other table miter slot free for now.  Any advice is appreciated.

 

[woodshopdemos]

May I respond to all of your postings. You are right. I was wrong and was just out riding my high horse.

 

[woodshopdemos]

Wayne, it is a tee track.

 

[wnagle]

John,

Thanks John.  I kinda figured that.  Gives me a reason to do some upgrading when I get the beading system.  I'll probably wait until I get back to Ohio rather than get it online.  And thanks for the nice review!

 

[peter halle]

John,

I am late posting.  I read you post earlier over lunch and italian dressing on the fingers prevented me from posting using my iphone.  You provide a service to both manufacturers and also to the visitors to your site.  I have read and enjoyed what I have read.  I have found the information to be impartial.  The manufacturer's know the risks when they send products - heck you could really hate their stuff and post that way.  The internet is full of imitation and also innovation.  The problem arises when someone copies and then sells or distributes.  That isn't your issue.  You just posted the pictures, you didn't do the bad deed.

Thank you for hard work and your principles.

Peter

 

[Memphis Larry]

John,

I am late posting.  I read you post earlier over lunch and italian dressing on the fingers prevented me from posting using my iphone.  You provide a service to both manufacturers and also to the visitors to your site.  I have read and enjoyed what I have read.  I have found the information to be impartial.  The manufacturer's know the risks when they send products - heck you could really hate their stuff and post that way.  The internet is full of imitation and also innovation.  The problem arises when someone copies and then sells or distributes.  That isn't your issue.  You just posted the pictures, you didn't do the bad deed.

Thank you for hard work and your principles.

Peter

What is the bad deed to which you refer?  Buying Kreg's products and making a jig that works like a complete setup sold by the same company does not seem like a "bad deed" to me.  As a lot, woodworkers are creative and inventive and can adopt and adapt new or better methods to their own needs.  Saving $$ is a strong consideration for most of us, especially in the current economic downturn.

 

[peter halle]

John,

I am late posting.  I read you post earlier over lunch and italian dressing on the fingers prevented me from posting using my iphone.  You provide a service to both manufacturers and also to the visitors to your site.  I have read and enjoyed what I have read.  I have found the information to be impartial.  The manufacturer's know the risks when they send products - heck you could really hate their stuff and post that way.  The internet is full of imitation and also innovation.  The problem arises when someone copies and then sells or distributes.  That isn't your issue.  You just posted the pictures, you didn't do the bad deed.

Thank you for hard work and your principles.

Peter

What is the bad deed to which you refer?  Buying Kreg's products and making a jig that works like a complete setup sold by the same company does not seem like a "bad deed" to me.  As a lot, woodworkers are creative and inventive and can adopt and adapt new or better methods to their own needs.  Saving $$ is a strong consideration for most of us, especially in the current economic downturn.

I personally don't believe that a bad deed has been done at all.  But I believe by the earliest posts in this thread that John may have felt personally a responsibility for people seeing his demonstration and then decided to copy or alter designs, and he felt responsible.  I tried to point out the same things that you did - it will happen.

I believe that my late posting may have accidentally added un-needed fuel to a dying fire.  For that I apologize.

 

[NVA_WW]

I'm a little late reading this thread.

Steve - 1 question.  Did you clamp the wood to your fence?  I just saw a demo at the Baltimore woodworking show and it seems the jig comes with a clamp.

Thanks.

 

[sw1211]

I'm a little late reading this thread.

Steve - 1 question.  Did you clamp the wood to your fence?  I just saw a demo at the Baltimore woodworking show and it seems the jig comes with a clamp.

Thanks.

Yes I clamped the wood to the fence.  The only place I've seen, at least so far, that sells the same Kreg clamp that comes with their system is Eagle America