My domino joints move

[frigator]

I have owned the domino xl for 30days today, and am thinking of taking it back. I have worked and practiced with it on many joints and am not happy with the result. I can move my joints around, twist them a little, and have to line them up before gluing up. With my Leigh FMT pro the joints are tight and twist fee.

I have measured everything and the mortise is only a few thousands bigger than the domino. I have several kinds of dominos and cutters and all my joints seem loose. The ridges on the domino, esp the end ridge, seem to give a lot of play in the joint. Is  it me and my technique or is this just how it is? If the mortise were any tighter I don't think I could hand push the domino in.

 

[Michael Kellough]

I have owned the domino xl for 30days today, and am thinking of taking it back. I have worked and practiced with it on many joints and am not happy with the result. I can move my joints around, twist them a little, and have to line them up before gluing up. With my Leigh FMT pro the joints are tight and twist fee.

I have measured everything and the mortise is only a few thousands bigger than the domino. I have several kinds of dominos and cutters and all my joints seem loose. The ridges on the domino, esp the end ridge, seem to give a lot of play in the joint. Is  it me and my technique or is this just how it is? If the mortise were any tighter I don't think I could hand push the domino in.

A little more explanation is needed to clear up this seeming contradiction.

 

[leakyroof]

If the fence moves on you, you'll end up with mortises that don't line up with each other on your board edges.
A picture or two here would help show your issues.

 

[Jeff Zanin]

The Domino cuts three different widths of mortise, the height of the mortise is determined by the bit, and the depth is determined by the depth setting.

What settings and bits are you using?

 

[grbmds]

I have owned the domino xl for 30days today, and am thinking of taking it back. I have worked and practiced with it on many joints and am not happy with the result. I can move my joints around, twist them a little, and have to line them up before gluing up. With my Leigh FMT pro the joints are tight and twist fee.

I have measured everything and the mortise is only a few thousands bigger than the domino. I have several kinds of dominos and cutters and all my joints seem loose. The ridges on the domino, esp the end ridge, seem to give a lot of play in the joint. Is  it me and my technique or is this just how it is? If the mortise were any tighter I don't think I could hand push the domino in.

Probably more information is needed as said, but there are a couple of things I learned quickly about using the Domino (in my case the 500 but I assume they all apply).

If the tenons are loose side to side, it is possible that the XL is moving just slightly during the plunge. I had that problem briefly when I go mine and practiced, but found out that it is essential that enough pressure is put on the front both downward and in a forward direction to make sure there is absolutely no side to side shift when plunging or the slot will be just slightly wider than necessary (although this wouldn't create any real problems during glue up since you have a lot of glue surface on the top and bottom of the Domino tenon).

If the tenons are loose top to bottom and the pieces to be glued don't line up completely it is possible that the Domino slightly tilts backwards during plunging. This can happen because of downward pressure being put on the tool with the hand doing the plunging. I realize that this is probably less likely to happen on an XL because of the position of the handle, but I would guess it still could happen.

Without more information, hard to tell, but returning it to where you bought it within 30 days is always an option and, if you can't figure out the problem, may be the best option at this point.

For me, of all the tools I've spent money on over many years, the Domino 500 is my favorite ever tool and I wouldn't hesitate to get the XL if I had a use for it. Most feedback I've heard for XL owners indicates that the XL is an even better tool than the 500. Good luck.

 

[clark_fork]

likely, your angle fence is not dead on square. Apply engineering square and make sure angle level is tight and fence is square on both sides. The Domino is lifting or drifting during the cut.

In early practice the operator may be out of square. If I was starting over, I would clamp a square on the work edge and use it to register one side of the plate until I got use to not drifting or lifting.  In making the cut I would try to be smooth as putting tanning lotion on a back on a nice sunny day.

 

[Cheese]

If the mortise were any tighter I don't think I could hand push the domino in.

That's part of the issue right there, with my 500, I usually have to tap the domino in with a hammer, it's supposed to be a snug/tight fit for proper alignment.

Try a different size domino. If you're having the same issue with the other sizes, then it's probably an operator technique issue. If it's just one domino size you're having a problem with, then it could be an out of spec cutter.

 

[fignewton]

I've also noted with my 500 that a slow, controlled start of the plunge eliminates any tendency of the machine to jump.  I have seen a few videos where operators seem to just jam the thing in to the workpiece rather than starting the cut slowly.  I found the latter works better, FWIW.

 

[waho6o9]

To ease the dominos in shave the edges  with a hand plane and they'll slip right in.

A fellow fogger shared this friendly advice and it works well.

Thanks again for the great idea.

 

[grbmds]

Actually the Dominos are made to fit as tight as they do to give the glue surface contact on the Domino faces. While it's probably OK to run the narrow ends over a piece of sandpaper once or twice, I don't think using a chisel on any side is advisable, especially on the longer flat sides. That will just loosen the joint. For dry fitting, others on the FOG have recommended keeping a set of Dominos which are sanded to be looser fitting just for that purpose.

 

[Cheese]

For trial fitting and making sure things align "pretty close to where they're supposed to" you can shave, sand, plane, hammer flat the domino, whatever it takes to dry-fit the domino tenon.

For the actual glue-up of an assembly, apply the glue, tap in the domino and assemble the pieces as required. Don't modify the dimensions of the domino by any method. For assembly, the dominos need to be assembled in the state that you purchased them. The positional location of the joined members is dependent upon the dimensions of the as-purchased domino and the mortise cut by the 500 or 700 jointer.

 

[frigator]

Thanks for all the advice. Everything is checked out on my machinery I think. You  I've been over it with a fine tooth comb. Let me ask you this. On a single Domino right angle joint, if you put it together dry and you try to move the pieces of lumber, can you move them? Can you turn them cause I can. If I need to be able to tap my dominoes in with a hammer then my joints are too loose.  But when I watch the videos I see people just sliding them in with their hands. I had one yesterday actually get stock and I can't get it out. Yesterday I was using the 8 mm cutter and dominoes but I've also tried the 5, 6  with the adapter and 12.

When I glue the joints together they are fine. But I have to make sure they are square as there is wiggle room in the joint. I've never used anything but the tightest setting. I can't imagine using the wider setting. The deficiency in this machine, in my view,  is there is no way to adjust the mortise like on the FMT pro. You get two choices tight or loose. With me it's loose or looser.

 

[bdiemer]

I love those videos where everything just slips in perfect. That's usually in an air conditioned shop with a dehumidifier going 24 hours a day. I live on the water and my shop is outside the house. A couple of strokes of sandpaper is normal procedure for me to fight summer wood expanding. Myself I sand the long flat sides in a circular motion
  My joints do move a littlie during dry fit but clamps bring them square. One of the big miss conceptions of the domino is .there is no learning curve, if you've used a biscuit joiner. There is a flow and that gets better with practice. It' s an incredible tool. 

 

[bertv]

[member=61932]frigator[/member]  There are some basic principles that apply & that you need to work with. For example I discovered that it is a good practice to use tight settings only on the ‘male’ part and looser ones on the receiving (‘female’) part, with the exception of one (or for longer pieces two) domino hole — most often at the side, where one can use the built-in offset of the DF to make sure that the opposing domino will fit perfectly if done with the same offset.

Deciding where to use tight and loose[r] settings becomes more complicated when you are making intricate constructions. It helps to visualize those with sketches and breaking it up into parts that get glued up in sequence. It takes experience (follows mistakes, as you know) to make efficient use of the Domino.

 

[grbmds]

There is some variation on how tight the Domino fits in the joint between different types of wood and a difference between how they fit in end grain versus edge, but not much. It's usually the difference between being able to pull the dominos out by hand versus being able to only get them back out after dry fitting only with a pliers. I don't believe I have experienced any twisting or wiggle room when I assemble the joints. When I clamp joints together they are square without adjustment. There is also variability of how tightly they fit, though, as said already, based on current humidity of your shop. All of this comes from experience with the 500, not XL, but I doubt the fit of the Domino is different for the XL.

The Domino is like any other tool, including the Leigh FMT. There is at least a slight learning curve. I have an FMT and found there was a learning curve with it also and that it wasn't quite as "set it up and use it" as Leigh indicated. Since I bought the Domino, I would likely never use the FMT again because the Domino creates a loose tenon joint that is, for all practical purposes, as strong as the FMT M & T joint and creates it much more easily. The FMT is a wonderful tool, but doesn't have the flexibility and ease of use the Domino has.

If you aren't getting that kind of performance from your Domino, then I'd suggest:

* If you are still within the 30 days just return it as there may be something wrong with the tool.
* If not within 30 days, it does have a 3-year warranty, so send it back to Festool Service for adjustment or repair. My experience is that, with tools that merely need adjustment and minor repairs and are under warranty, the turnaround is about a week.

Returning the tool or sending it in for service will give you some piece of mind. There is nothing worse than trying to use a tool in which you don't have confidence and the Domino is worth gaining that confidence. It will give you capability to do things you just weren't able to do easily before.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Thanks for all the advice. Everything is checked out on my machinery I think. You  I've been over it with a fine tooth comb. Let me ask you this. On a single Domino right angle joint, if you put it together dry and you try to move the pieces of lumber, can you move them? Can you turn them cause I can. If I need to be able to tap my dominoes in with a hammer then my joints are too loose.  But when I watch the videos I see people just sliding them in with their hands. I had one yesterday actually get stock and I can't get it out. Yesterday I was using the 8 mm cutter and dominoes but I've also tried the 5, 6  with the adapter and 12.

When I glue the joints together they are fine. But I have to make sure they are square as there is wiggle room in the joint. I've never used anything but the tightest setting. I can't imagine using the wider setting. The deficiency in this machine, in my view,  is there is no way to adjust the mortise like on the FMT pro. You get two choices tight or loose. With me it's loose or looser.

If a single Domino, all by itself with no glue, could prevent you from moving the pieces of wood around it you'd never get it into the wood.

Just imagine what would happen if you used a single dowel instead.

If you don't want to bother aligning the parts of the joint while the glue sets then use a minimum of two Dominoes.

 

[frigator]

Well thats what I am trying to figure out, if its standard procedure with this machine to have some play such that I can move the joint say 1/32 or 1/16 around. Perhaps that could be a good thing if your joint isn't square to begin with. Obviously Fesstool thinks a looser connection can be a good thing in certain situations. I have been using the FMT since 2002 and I have that thing dialed in so there is no play, no need to square a joint during assembly. And there is some disagreement as to just how strong the domino joint is compared to a traditional M/T...we have all read the FWW test.

I bought this machine cause the FMT is limited in length, 36inches for me.  I have a build coming of several large pieces with long parts, ie dining table, large coffee tables , etc. So most of my joints will be end grain to long grain connections. I do have some difficulty balancing this XL on narrow stock. There is little  instruction in the manual of just how to best clamp and place these pieces for the best registration of the machcine. I have tried to watch videos and learn over the last 30days but I would by lying if I didnt say so far I am disappointed in the machine. Today is my 30days I think.....I purchased it on July 22 so not sure how to count it.

Problem is if I take it back then its back to handcutting those long pieces which gives me an even worse result that I am getting with the XL. Or build some ridiculous high platform to do the joints on the FMT. But I do appreciate all your responses. This really is a great forum

 

[duburban]

leave your dominoes out in the ambient air and they will tighten up to the point of having to hammer them in. this has never been an issue for me but we all obsess over different things.

i think a video of what your concern is would go a long way towards illustrating the type of movement your concerned with.

 

[Gregor]

I had one yesterday actually get stock and I can't get it out. Yesterday I was using the 8 mm cutter and dominoes but I've also tried the 5, 6  with the adapter and 12.

If with 'adapter' you're talking about the secena one: I have that too for my XL (no problems though).
Doing mortices with and without the adapter the dominos fit tightly, often I have to tap then in with a small hammer and getting them back out is tricky.

Some thoughts about why your mortices get bigger:

Should you use the domino without dust collection: Don't! Your mortices will get bigger than intended and be off, plus you'll wear down the machine and the drill bits needlessly. The XL manual is quite clear about using dust collection for a reason.

In case you only have problems when using the adapter and tight fit when using the 'normal' XL bits: send the adapter back, it isn't perfectly aligned so the drill bits wobble so you get a bigger diameter in the mortice and the dominos won't fit snugly.

For small stock: clamp several of them together so you have a flat top, then you can register fence fully onto it to not twist or move by accident.

 

[Cheese]

[member=61932]frigator[/member], why not bring the 700 back to where you purchased it and ask their Festool expert/guru to cut some mortises and then evaluate whether those mortises provide a tighter joint or do they produce the same quality joint that you are making now.

That'd make things simple, if the guru's joint is tighter and you're satisfied with it, then you need to practice with the 700. If the guru's joint is the same as yours, then you need to ascertain if you can/will live with that amount of movement in the joint. If you can't, then you can return the 700 on the spot.  [cool]