My one complaint about Festool

jbasen

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Jan 27, 2013
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Don't get me wrong.  I love my Festool tools.  However, as an engineer who has taken quite a few business classes, including graduate level marketing courses, this is something about Festool that drives me crazy.  My complaint is not with a specific tool but how marketing strategy at Festool impacts tool design of their top of the line tools (at least those available in NA).  Let me explain.

What I have observed is that when you buy the top-of-the-line tool from Festool in a particular tool category, there are design limitations compared to buying a lower priced Festool product in that same category.  These design limitations aren't technical limitations but ones specified by marketing.  Here are 3 examples

TS-75 - I had a TS-55 but was cutting a bunch of 1 1/2" butcher block counter-top and the saw was struggling.  It seemed an obvious decision to upgrade to the TS-75.  Being just a hobbyist woodworker, having 2 track saws wasn't in the cards so I sold the TS-55 to offset the cost of the new saw.  What I didn't realize, at the time, was that there were 2 marketing decisions that limited the TS-75.  First there is no cover plate for the TS-75. So, unless you cover your saw with duct tape, or Macgyver your own your cover plate, the dust collection is not nearly as effective as the lower priced saw.  Second, the splinter guard is the same as the one for the TS-55 and it is only effective on the TS-75 when cutting thick stock.  If you want splinter free cuts on 3/4" plywood using the TS-75 you need to, again, Macgyver a modification designed by half-inch-shy.  To me, the marketing decision not to have a cover plate or a properly designed splinter guard make Festools top of the line track saw inferior to the lower priced model.

Domino XL - Why does it require Seneca adapters to use the Domino XL to cut mortises in thinner stock?  Since Seneca was able to make a great set of adapters there is obviously no technical reason that the XL can't be used for thinner stock.  But, out of the box from Festool it was designed to only work with thicker stock.  Again a marketing decision to segment the original domino for thin stock and the XL for thicker stock vs. the bigger tool can do it all.  Unlike routers where using a bigger tool for smaller stock isn't a good idea, personally I find the balance of the XL to be better than the original Domino so it feels better no matter what sized wood you are cutting mortises in.

I feel this is like a table saw manufacturer not letting you lower the blade enough on their high end, 5 hp saw to optimally cut thinner boards and expecting everyone to purchase an additional, smaller, 1.75 hp saw for cutting 3/4" wood and smaller.  How many people would ever buy 2 table saws just to cut different size stock.

T-18 and TI-15 - If you purchased Festools less expensive drills and you want to get a Festool impact driver then the batteries are compatible and you are good to go.  However, if you purchased a top of the line T-18 and you want to also purchase a Festool impact driver you are penalized and have to purchase an entire additional set of 15v batteries.  There is no technical reason that Festool couldn't have sold a TI-18 that would have been compatible.  It is simply a marketing decision that again, makes the decision to buy their top of the line, 18 volt drill questionable.

Most companies reward the people who buy their best tools.  They typically have added features that entice you to spend the extra money.  To me, Festool just seems to take a backwards approach. 

Hopefully putting this out there will raise awareness and get Festool to make their top of the line tools truly rewarding to their owners.

 
I look at the TS55 and TS75 very differently. The vast majority of things I would cut suit the TS55, I consider the TS75 a more "brutal" tool and don't believe it was intended to have the same refinement as the TS55 .. after all, the TS55 has evolved into the TS55R and TSC55. Just because the TS75 is bigger and more expensive doesn't necessarily mean it should do everything the smaller tool does and better. Festool engineer their tools with a task focus (not bottom, middle and top of the line) ... they're not designed to be "universal".

On the Domino ... maybe, but there's also the consideration that the large tool was considered too clumsy for the finer bits.

I believe a strong demand for a more refined TS75 could drive a change, but let's not forget one of the major drivers for innovation ... competition!

On TiXX formats, I'd also like a Ti18, but the demand for beefy impact drivers seems to be far less in Europe and let's not forget the evolving merging of the Festool and Protool brands.

Bigger and more expensive does not mean better in every regard. A large truck is more expensive than a typical car and can carry far more, but wouldn't fit into a small parking space or be as nimble to drive - each have their purpose and that's why people that have both needs own both vehicles (an extreme example, but just to underline the point).

Don't get me wrong, there's certainly avenues for improvement, but I really don't see Festool as a marketing driven company - they're just responding to their market. As it changes they probably will too.
 
Maybe it is my lack of sophistication when it comes to the track saws that I don't see the TS-75 as a more "brutal" tool; just more limiting because the accessories offered, or in this case not offered, make it that way.  As I see it the extra weight is its one drawback.  But, by not offering a cover plate for better dust collection and properly designed splinter guard I see lower sales as a self fulfilling prophecy.

You are absolutely right that bigger isn't always better.  However, in tools a little more capacity and a little extra power are typically desirable attributes.

 
I see the logic in what you are saying, especially having a antisplinter guard that doesn't work with thinner stock on the TS 75 seems weird, as well as not having a cover for the hole in the saws protective housing which allows dust to escape unecessarly there. I will definately be doing the HalfInchShy modification on the splinter guard and plug up the hole in the housing asap.

The TI impact being incompatible with 18v batteries has also caught my eye, but having a yen for the C15 drill I would here be able to share batteries between the Carvex PSC, C15 and the TI 15 impact should I go that route.. Pehaps they chose the 15v battery to keep the weight down?
 
It's the German mentality - they believe very strongly in using the right tool for the job, rather than 'getting by' with the wrong tool.

Taking the Domino example, the XL is designed for big jobs. If you want to put dominos in 12 or 18mm ply, that's not the correct tool for the job; you don't make an adapter to make it do, you use the smaller domino.

As for the TS55 & 75 - the TS75 is designed for materials that can't be cut with the TS55. It's not designed to cut thinner materials, that's what the 55 is for.

When it comes to the Ti15, I'm not sure what they were thinking. Given that with Li-Ion technology the weight isn't much of an issue any more, I think Festool have pretty much made the decision to standardise on the 18V platform going forward, but I guess the Ti15 was designed before that decision was made. Also, I think the Ti15 was rushed (in Festool terms) to the market, and although I've never used one I get the impression from others that it just isn't any good.

I'm pretty sure that all new cordless tools will be 18v in the future.

Edit: Another example of this is the BHC18 - I really wish it had a rotary stop function, so you could use it for removing tiles (I may have mentioned this before!). I couldn't understand why it didn't have it. Basically, it's because no-one at Festool in Germany would ever consider using a cordless tool for any kind of demo work; for that you'd use a mains SDS. Period.
 
I hear what you are saying about "the right tool for the job" and do agree.

But practically speaking how many professionals want to lug 2 tracks saws to a job site in a work van with limited capacity.  Or, in my case as a hobbyist; how many people will want to invest in 2 track saws.  That just covers not having a splinter guard for the TS-75 that covers cutting thinner stock.  It doesn't excuse not having a cover plate that limits the TS-75's dust collection; one of Festool's top claims as a manufacturer over it's competitors.

As others on the FOG have pointed out the Domino XL is such a great tool that it is better balanced and easier to use than the original domino.  So, I really don't buy the argument that it should only be used for larger jobs.

Again, I do love Festool tools.  These are just 3 examples where I think they have gone astray.

 
Regarding the TS55, I don't know the history of the product lines, are those features new to the REQ version or has it been around before the TS75?

I agree the Domino XL shouldn't require an aftermarket adapter for the smaller sizes, but at least it was possible and solved by Seneca.

The drill thing is odd, just get some Milwaukee M18 fuels and move on ;)
 
I think the "right tool for the job" is probably the driving force, but I bet that's sometimes taken to an extreme in order to boost sales of more tools (ensuring a "bigger" tool won't do the smaller things like intro of the Domino XL after the original).

As for the TS-75 vs 55, I think some of that comes out from the fact that the 55req is simply newer and has better engineering.  One may wonder, however, why TS-75req is not out yet.

I am more bothered by things like not having LR32 holes on all of the tracks.  It is in direct opposition of the "system" approach and a terrible decision IMO to continue to make tracks which are not fully "system" compatible, and even worse to not sell the LR32 55" track with the TS55req by default.  It's almost like they are counting on you having to buy new tracks over again.
 
amt said:
I am more bothered by things like not having LR32 holes on all of the tracks.  It is in direct opposition of the "system" approach and a terrible decision IMO to continue to make tracks which are not fully "system" compatible, and even worse to not sell the LR32 55" track with the TS55req by default.  It's almost like they are counting on you having to buy new tracks over again.

Couldn't agree more. At the very least offer all rails with the holes as an option.
 
amt said:
I am more bothered by things like not having LR32 holes on all of the tracks.  It is in direct opposition of the "system" approach and a terrible decision IMO to continue to make tracks which are not fully "system" compatible, and even worse to not sell the LR32 55" track with the TS55req by default. 

If I were the product manager for guide rails at Festool the VERY first thing i would do is make all of the guide rails 'Holey' rails. At least everything under 3000mm.

I agree that it is counterproductive and a disservice to the customer to make them choose, or - worse yet- make them regret their purchase over something so easy to fix. The fact that they even HAVE a 55" rail without holes simply boggles the mind...
 
Most of the varying opinions expressed merely show me the wide variety of personal preference. No tool company could address 100% of the potential needs of its buyers. I, for example, tried the TS75. I found it was cumbersome for my use. By the way, the TS55REQ is a newer version of the TS55. It's possible that, when Festool comes out with a newer version of the TS75 at some point in the future, the changes will be incorporated into the new version of that saw also. I also find the Domino XL cumbersome and, although I don't own it and haven't tried it on smaller stock, feel the 500 is just the right size for most of my jobs. I just think everyone has different needs and I have bought the Festool tools that meet the vast majority of mine. I have found that they work for what I'm doing.
 
I hadn't thought about rails without holes; but that is another good example.  Thanks for pointing that out. 

I agree the TS-75, with its additional weight, is more cumbersome than a TS-55.  There are tradeoffs and I understand that.  I really like the TS-75 and have no objections with its overall design. 

My objection is simply that Festool doesn't supply a little piece of plastic, the splinter guard, specifically designed for TS-75 instead of re-using the one from the TS-55.  And that the saw has poorer dust collection because Festool has never made a cover plate for the saw. 

These are both easily addressed and don't require a new saw design as they are both separate parts from the saw itself.

You are also right that there are going to be a wide variety of preferences to tools.  Some, like grbmds, prefer the smaller Domino.  I just don't see why Festool limited the large Domino to large stock and I'm very appreciative to Seneca for overcoming this limitation. 

Hopefully, I've made my point.  I'll get off my soap box now [smile]
 
I personally am not big on the holes in the rails, just visually speaking it makes the rails look a little cheasy, for my uses I will use the regular rails, if I occasionally need to do the shelving unit thing I could just go get the 1400 rail and make do with that..

As to the drawback of the TS 75 being large and heavy..., well that is exactly what makes it possible to cut thicker stock and cut through the denser wood types like beech of maple, so I love that saw and the other two design flaws it has are easily fixed so no serious complaints here...

The Domino interests me but I for one will likely go for the 500 and the 700 pair.
 
Here - just have a little sip of this KoolAid, and everything will be all right...

You don't wan't to be using the wrong tool for the job now, do you?  Obviously, you need to buy more tools... You NEED two domino's and at least two track saws, and while your at it some sort of Apple computer  [eek]

The holey rail is the best example - what possible reason would they still sell the regular rail?  (is there any advantage to the standard rail? - no)
 
Great - now we have a Festool bashing thread.

People have the right to vote with their money - nobody has been forced to buy Festool.

While we're at it why don't they make one sander that does everything?? ... and a dust extractor that reconstitutes dominos out the other end eh?

Festool doesn't do everything perfectly, but they do a better job than most and offer superior service and support. They also improve their tools over time and very obviously take in suggestions and incorporate them in their new products.

 
Kev said:
Great - now we have a Festool bashing thread.

Some folks wanting a better selection of holed rails falls far short of being a bashing thread.
 
Kev said:
While we're at it why don't they make one sander that does everything?? ... and a dust extractor that reconstitutes dominos out the other end eh?

That's a FANTASTIC idea, Kev! I can see it now: The new Festool Poopex - eats sawdust for dinner and makes dominoes for desert!

Of course - following the theme of this thread - you'd have to buy a Mini for 4mm, Midi for 5mm, CT26 for 6/7mm, CT36 for 8/9mm, and CT48 for 10mm and above?

[poke] [popcorn]
 
wow said:
Kev said:
While we're at it why don't they make one sander that does everything?? ... and a dust extractor that reconstitutes dominos out the other end eh?

That's a FANTASTIC idea, Kev! I can see it now: The new Festool Poopex - eats sawdust for dinner and makes dominoes for desert!

Of course - following the theme of this thread - you'd have to buy a Mini for 4mm, Midi for 5mm, CT26 for 6/7mm, CT36 for 8/9mm, and CT48 for 10mm and above?

[poke] [popcorn]

Was just observing this thread ..but nice one wow ..funny
 
Kev said:
Great - now we have a Festool bashing thread.

People have the right to vote with their money - nobody has been forced to buy Festool.

While we're at it why don't they make one sander that does everything?? ... and a dust extractor that reconstitutes dominos out the other end eh?

Festool doesn't do everything perfectly, but they do a better job than most and offer superior service and support. They also improve their tools over time and very obviously take in suggestions and incorporate them in their new products.

My goal in starting this thread was not to create a Festool bashing session.  I started it out by saying that I love my Festool tools.  However, Festool, like every company, isn't perfect.  My goal was to raise awareness for what I saw as deficiencies in the way they make design decisions about some of their products.  I was hoping that people replying to this thread would show support for a different approach that would improve Festool's products in the future.
 
I agree with a lot that was said in the original post.  I own the ts75 and have never had a problem with the weight and need the extra power.  They make every blade to accomplish the same things as the 55 so why not have a splinter guard that works on thinner stock and dust shroud.  If the ts75 was only for thick materials why have a fine blade.
JJ

Edit: I guess you could dedicate the fine blade for only crosscutting but that is kind of a stretch.
 
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